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Old 12-28-2013, 08:54 AM   #7851
Layvon
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Perhaps he is confusing his second regulator with the inline dampener?
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Old 12-28-2013, 11:28 AM   #7852
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Originally Posted by 05_wRex View Post
You have two fuel pressure regulators? What car is this? Stock fuel pressure regulators? Or aftermarket?

As far as it being ok? It will make tuning idle and low load areas difficult and inconsistent. Along with heating up the fuel (more fuel returned to tank heated by the engine) quicker which could cause issues if it gets too hot. You aren't over running it by a huge amount. But Id say that once you add that second pump it will only make it worse. Do you plan on wiring the pump with a Hobbs switch? Or just both together to run all the time?

Yea, low idle can get real lumpy on cold start especially with the E85.After 3mins of sounding like a cammed tractor its pure rumble.

For the twin FPR's, they sit at the end of each billet rail, OEM denso' with slight modification (tapped in)

The second pump is in tank all ready to go (with butt connectors currently disconnected ). Its running off manifold PSI to hobb's which tells it to activate at 6+ PSI. (running them together will over run base pressure by way too much) especially with both 255l pumps modified to flow more.

Last edited by 1MOFOSTI; 12-28-2013 at 11:38 AM. Reason: Small type error!
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Old 12-28-2013, 11:31 AM   #7853
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Originally Posted by Layvon View Post
Perhaps he is confusing his second regulator with the inline dampener?
Nah im defiantly running the 2 denso FPR's + dampener next to the fuel filter.

each OEM FPR sits at the end of each billet rail.
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Old 12-28-2013, 11:34 AM   #7854
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see post #7796 for engine bay shot, Car is 04 STi
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Old 12-28-2013, 01:06 PM   #7855
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That is interesting. Any reason you went with two?

Anyways, you will be fine with the second pump the way you are planning to have it setup. It will not change your low load tune. You may still have idle/low load issues unless you go to a bigger fpr. But you may find that the variation isn't enough to you to justify a different regulator setup.

Edit: what size return line do you have?
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Old 12-28-2013, 10:48 PM   #7856
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Originally Posted by 05_wRex View Post
That is interesting. Any reason you went with two?

Anyways, you will be fine with the second pump the way you are planning to have it setup. It will not change your low load tune. You may still have idle/low load issues unless you go to a bigger fpr. But you may find that the variation isn't enough to you to justify a different regulator setup.

Edit: what size return line do you have?
I went with duel FPR's to keep both rails as fully pressurized as possible, which will allow me to get the maximum flow to the injectors. (x4 1000cc @ 90+% IDC like's to eat)

All fuel lines are oem, no mods needed there.

Last edited by 1MOFOSTI; 12-29-2013 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 12-28-2013, 11:46 PM   #7857
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A good single (duel =/= dual) FPR would be sufficiently fine. If anything, they restrict flow from getting past it, not the other way around.
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Old 12-29-2013, 08:19 AM   #7858
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Originally Posted by yamahaSHO View Post
A good single (duel =/= dual) FPR would be sufficiently fine. If anything, they restrict flow from getting past it, not the other way around.
Yes correct you can run a nice single aftermarket unit and it would be pretty much the same, but the 2 OEM's do the job great for me and is why im running one per rail to keep both rails pressurized as much as possible at all times. ( mine are slightly moded, compressed springs.)
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Old 12-29-2013, 08:49 AM   #7859
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oh yes i will re word my previous post #7856 as its a bit confusing
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Old 12-29-2013, 11:58 AM   #7860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOFOSTI View Post
Yes correct you can run a nice single aftermarket unit and it would be pretty much the same, but the 2 OEM's do the job great for me and is why im running one per rail to keep both rails pressurized as much as possible at all times. ( mine are slightly moded, compressed springs.)

Running one OEM would keep "it pressurized as much as possible"... Again, it is a restriction. You've only complicated things running two OEM.

FWIW, CJ is running a 450 Walbro on a stock fuel system with ID2000's. Granted, I wouldn't do that considering that the OEM FPR is probably being overrun at low load, but it's definitely keeping it pressurized.
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Old 12-30-2013, 06:15 AM   #7861
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yamahaSHO View Post
Running one OEM would keep "it pressurized as much as possible"... Again, it is a restriction. You've only complicated things running two OEM.

FWIW, CJ is running a 450 Walbro on a stock fuel system with ID2000's. Granted, I wouldn't do that considering that the OEM FPR is probably being overrun at low load, but it's definitely keeping it pressurized.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it only a restriction for the returning fuel as it sits at the end of each billet rail controlling how pressurized the rail is before the fuel passes through the FPR and returns to the tank?

I was taught that having the 2 FPR's improve's fuel distribution and minimize's potential variation in Air Fuel Ratio from cylinder to cylinder, so you can tune your car for a more reliable tune as well as tuning for peak performance.

As for one OEM FPR doing the same job as my dual setup, i cant see that working as it sits all the way on the end of the opposite 2nd rail.
Plus for mine ive compressed both regulator springs so under load each individual rail holds even more PSI.
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Old 12-30-2013, 07:41 AM   #7862
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It looks like you are trying to "balance" individual fuel rail pressure with your setup.

Ideally you would need to calibrate both regulators, to keep them the same pressure. Crushing them may increase fuel pressure, but how much pressure do you want/need?

Also you may need to separeate them completely from the same pump, as they may interfere with each other. (Basically you are trying to regulate one end with two valves). We have a return type fuel system which is different than those that are closed end.

To do what you want to do, balance fuel rail pressure, perhaps a properly sized series arrangement is your best bet. One regulator controls the whole system's pressure.

The regulator is supposed to be the choke point, but not to the point where it cannot relieve enough fuel, where pressure builds beyond the desired set point. That is called over running it.

Overrun is controlled a few ways:

1 You can use a large flow rate regulator and run a pump 100%. (Note: fuel return line can become a choke point depending on flow.)

2 You can can run two pumps, one runs when needed to make up for large fuel demands. (This can be calculated by pump flow rate and demand)

3 You can run one large pump and speed control for fuel demand. (This is the factory setup, but sized for larger turbos. This can be optimized by monitoring fuel pressure.)

Im sure there are other ways, and there are advantages and disadvantages to doing each one.

Hope this helps.
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Old 12-30-2013, 09:26 AM   #7863
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Originally Posted by slowgenius View Post
2 You can can run two pumps, one runs when needed to make up for large fuel demands. (This can be calculated by pump flow rate and demand)
Both FPR's flow the same and were only tapped in once at the same pressure each time.

Im running buscher double pumpers (dual modded 255l) with currently only one connected.

Atm im trying to get the car running 110% before re-tuning and connecting the 2nd pump (butt connectors). The 2nd pump is already installed in tank and just sitting there. It is activated when my hobbs see's 6+psi of manifold pressure which allows fuel pressure on WOT to reach 70+PSI and remain in the 70's without decreasing the slightest. Other advantages of having 2 stage engineered pumps is that the base pressure isn't raised until it's required under load as you mentioned.
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Old 12-30-2013, 09:39 AM   #7864
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I am confused...how exactly are your OEM fpr's increasing base pressure up to 70psi ONLY at WOT?


Also, unless you hooked up a gauge on each one individually or unless you know ALL the factors like individual spring rate, metal thickness, and have a gauge to measure your force you hit it with, it is impossible to say that both fpr are flowing identical pressures. Remember, calibrated elbows have pretty large ± in accuracy, and each individual component in that fpr is going to have an allowable variation of accuracy during manufacturing.


I just feel like you are working to solve a problem that never really existed. You are possibly creating a more complicated troubleshooting scenario as well as severly overcomplicating the system in general.
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Old 12-30-2013, 10:19 AM   #7865
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
I am confused...how exactly are your OEM fpr's increasing base pressure up to 70psi ONLY at WOT?


Also, unless you hooked up a gauge on each one individually or unless you know ALL the factors like individual spring rate, metal thickness, and have a gauge to measure your force you hit it with, it is impossible to say that both fpr are flowing identical pressures. Remember, calibrated elbows have pretty large ± in accuracy, and each individual component in that fpr is going to have an allowable variation of accuracy during manufacturing.


I just feel like you are working to solve a problem that never really existed. You are possibly creating a more complicated troubleshooting scenario as well as severly overcomplicating the system in general.


No, the 2nd pump kicking in increase's WOT from 55PSI to 70+PSI. The regs are slighlty tapped to hold as much of that pressure in the rails keeping the injectors fed nicely at all times under load. Your 100% correct with the problem that never existed tho.

The original problem i was facing was, i thought our base idle pressure had to be 43.5PSI and i was only getting 39PSI .Turns out to be the best possible outcome, as its 43.5PSI base with manifold pressure reference disconnected and i was testing with it connected. So lack of knowledge on my part which id rather than have a problem with the fuel system.

Along the lines somewhere the question was asked why i run duel regs and basically we are here now still taking about trying to figure out if i have set up a good system or if i need to hit the drawing board again.

Here's a rough diagram to give everyone a better understanding of what i set up.


how to screenshot on windows
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Old 12-30-2013, 10:35 AM   #7866
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Having two regulators plumbed together on the same feed will probably result in poor pressure regulation, wich in turn will make tuning that much more difficult due to fluctuations.

It is possible, almost likely, the regulator with the highest seat pressure isnt even opening, which could cause one rail to have a bubble.

You cant assume that both are bypassing the same ammount. Once the desired pressure is reached, the pressure is equal in the system, and the other regulator will stay closed. The fuel will take the path of least resistance.

If your second pump kicks on, the only way the other regulator will open is if it becomes overrun to the point it cracks the other one open, but by then there would be crazy spikes in pressure.

To avoid that, you would have to plumb the pumps separately, or ditch the one regulator.

The way the fuel pressure gauge is connected, you will never see if one rail is flowing and the other isnt.

Last edited by slowgenius; 12-30-2013 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 12-30-2013, 11:16 AM   #7867
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Also, the regulator is fed a manifold signal to compensate for boost. If you disconnect it, it will not work properly.

If you have 43 psi fuel pressure and 15 psi of manifold pressure you now have an effective fuel pressure of 28. You have to subtract the boost pressure on an uncompensated system.

We have whats called rising rate fuel regulators. As the boost rises, so does the fuel pressure to compensate.
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Old 12-30-2013, 02:55 PM   #7868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOFOSTI View Post
No, the 2nd pump kicking in increase's WOT from 55PSI to 70+PSI. The regs are slighlty tapped to hold as much of that pressure in the rails keeping the injectors fed nicely at all times under load. Your 100% correct with the problem that never existed tho.

The original problem i was facing was, i thought our base idle pressure had to be 43.5PSI and i was only getting 39PSI .Turns out to be the best possible outcome, as its 43.5PSI base with manifold pressure reference disconnected and i was testing with it connected. So lack of knowledge on my part which id rather than have a problem with the fuel system.

Along the lines somewhere the question was asked why i run duel regs and basically we are here now still taking about trying to figure out if i have set up a good system or if i need to hit the drawing board again.

Here's a rough diagram to give everyone a better understanding of what i set up.


how to screenshot on windows
I can't see the image here at work but;

39 PSI base pressure seems high with vacuum applied. Factoring in a healthy engine with good vacuum, you should have more like a 10 PSI drop in fuel pressure under vacuum.

If you're just trying to "balance" balance out the rails, start with a decent aftermarket FPR, route the lines in parallel, and either Y them into the FPR inlet, or buy an FPR that has two inlet ports. That's about as much of a drawing board that is needed. You're making this more difficult on yourself for no real reason.

As other's have already stated, between the two FPR's, you don't really know what's going on at each individual rail. You'd be much better off improving the path and flow within/to/from the rails and controlling it with one single regulator that will maintain pressure for the whole setup. Ideally, what happens to one rail (pressure), happens exactly the same to the other.
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Old 12-30-2013, 03:23 PM   #7869
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yamahaSHO View Post

Ideally, what happens to one rail (pressure), happens exactly the same to the other.
That is why the factory setup is in series.

IMHO

If you have billet rails, run a -6 or -8 line between them and you wont have any balance issues. Feed one end and regulator at other end. Done.
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Old 12-30-2013, 04:06 PM   #7870
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowgenius View Post

That is why the factory setup is in series.

IMHO

If you have billet rails, run a -6 or -8 line between them and you wont have any balance issues. Feed one end and regulator at other end. Done.
This is exactly how mine will be setup. -6 feed to drivers rail then to pass rail then to regulator and back to the tank.
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Old 12-30-2013, 04:27 PM   #7871
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There is some good info in THIS thread, especially the info shared by Dom that convinced me that a good series setup is the way to go. I'll never use or suggest a parallel setup and multiple regulators is just a bad idea in my opinion.

Keep it simple with a nice flowing series setup and a nice adjustable FPR and you'll have the fueling you need.
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Old 12-30-2013, 04:39 PM   #7872
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowgenius View Post
That is why the factory setup is in series.

IMHO

If you have billet rails, run a -6 or -8 line between them and you wont have any balance issues. Feed one end and regulator at other end. Done.

When I installed my T1 top feed conversion, I kept it in factory series configuration with -6 lines and an Aeromotive FPR. Base pressure of 50 PSI, Walbro 450, and ID1000's. It's done very well in that I haven't had any tuning issues and have plenty of fuel.
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Old 12-30-2013, 11:40 PM   #7873
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Originally Posted by slowgenius View Post
Also, the regulator is fed a manifold signal to compensate for boost. If you disconnect it, it will not work properly.

If you have 43 psi fuel pressure and 15 psi of manifold pressure you now have an effective fuel pressure of 28. You have to subtract the boost pressure on an uncompensated system.

We have whats called rising rate fuel regulators. As the boost rises, so does the fuel pressure to compensate.
Here's my results as it sits with one pump connected:
- Cold start = 3.2bar (46PSI)
- Warm idle = 2.7bar (39PSI)
- WOT = 3.8bar (55PSI)

- Manifold Pressure Reference disconnected : 3.3BAR ( 47.8 PSI )
- Manifold Pressure Reference connected : 2.7 ( 39PSI )

From my results if you subtract the WOT 55PSI from the 21PSI of boost i'm currently running you get 34PSI . but i'm sitting on 39PSI so this mean i'm overrunning the FPR's by 5PSI?


Quote:
Originally Posted by yamahaSHO View Post
I can't see the image here at work but;

39 PSI base pressure seems high with vacuum applied. Factoring in a healthy engine with good vacuum, you should have more like a 10 PSI drop in fuel pressure under vacuum.

If you're just trying to "balance" balance out the rails, start with a decent aftermarket FPR, route the lines in parallel, and either Y them into the FPR inlet, or buy an FPR that has two inlet ports. That's about as much of a drawing board that is needed. You're making this more difficult on yourself for no real reason.

As other's have already stated, between the two FPR's, you don't really know what's going on at each individual rail. You'd be much better off improving the path and flow within/to/from the rails and controlling it with one single regulator that will maintain pressure for the whole setup. Ideally, what happens to one rail (pressure), happens exactly the same to the other.
Do you mean it should be 39PSI - 10PSI = 29 PSI base idle Press or 10PSI difference from the Manifold Pressure Reference disconnected and with it connected?
Because as it sits i have a 8 - 9 PSI drop from when MPR is disconnected and connected.

For the aftermarket FPR setup is this diagram below correct what your describing.

take a screenshot

Quote:
Originally Posted by yamahaSHO View Post
When I installed my T1 top feed conversion, I kept it in factory series configuration with -6 lines and an Aeromotive FPR. Base pressure of 50 PSI, Walbro 450, and ID1000's. It's done very well in that I haven't had any tuning issues and have plenty of fuel.
Your base is with Manifold Pressure Reference disconnected right?
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Old 12-30-2013, 11:58 PM   #7874
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Old 12-31-2013, 12:53 AM   #7875
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOFOSTI View Post
Here's my results as it sits with one pump connected:
- Cold start = 3.2bar (46PSI)
- Warm idle = 2.7bar (39PSI)
- WOT = 3.8bar (55PSI)

- Manifold Pressure Reference disconnected : 3.3BAR ( 47.8 PSI )
- Manifold Pressure Reference connected : 2.7 ( 39PSI )

From my results if you subtract the WOT 55PSI from the 21PSI of boost i'm currently running you get 34PSI . but i'm sitting on 39PSI so this mean i'm overrunning the FPR's by 5PSI?




Do you mean it should be 39PSI - 10PSI = 29 PSI base idle Press or 10PSI difference from the Manifold Pressure Reference disconnected and with it connected?
Because as it sits i have a 8 - 9 PSI drop from when MPR is disconnected and connected.

For the aftermarket FPR setup is this diagram below correct what your describing.

take a screenshot



Your base is with Manifold Pressure Reference disconnected right?
Base pressure is with the FPR at an atmospheric reference (no vac/no boost). You really can set it for whatever you want within reason, however, 43.5 PSI is the norm; I have mine set at 50 PSI. At idle, I read ~ 40 PSI at the rail to maintain the same pressure differential (~73 PSI at peak boost).

- Base pressure = FPR with no vac (43.5 PSI)
- Idle pressure = BP - Vacuum (healthy, stockish warm motor 43.5 - ~10 = 33.x PSI)
- Max pressure = BP + boost (43.5 + 21 = 64.5 PSI)

If you feel like you need to run a parallel setup, that diagram is correct or at least, much better than what you're currently doing. However, there really isn't a need to deviate from the stock series configuration.
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