Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Saturday March 30, 2024
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Built Motor Discussion

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-09-2013, 01:42 PM   #1
rushdylan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 337170
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: hesperia, California
Vehicle:
2003 wrx
silver

Default Highly controversal technique for rebuild

I've seen lots of this technique for motocross but none for cars. this is what we like to call, the 'dry' rebuild. dry meaning, no oil! but whoa whoa, you might be thinking 'what?! this guys gonna rebuild his motor with no oil?!' not so fast, what I'm referring to is, the bottom end will have oil/assembly lube and so will the cams/valves, except the pistons and cylinders have no oil. this is done in an attempt to keep from a glazed cylinder to promote the BEST cylinder to ring seal as possible. I've been doing this type of rebuild for years on motocross bikes and my personal bike revs to 13,500rpm with 14.2:1 compression! so don't think this is for the ole mower. I can't tell you with facts if this works to seal better than if you coated the pistons and cylinders with oil but why wouldn't it? because of my recent purchasing of a wrx, I've never gotten into a car motor before besides the rebuild of my ranger so I never really did a dry rebuild on a car. my main worries would be the longer oil passages which would take slightly longer to move oil than my dirtbike would. what is everybody's I lnput? maybe some of you have even done this already. I already know this is going to explode with people freakin out about not using oil but come on now, it's gonna get oil before it gets hot enough to cause damage. now lets get this figured out!
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
rushdylan is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 01-09-2013, 01:58 PM   #2
Leafy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 330625
Join Date: Aug 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: MA
Vehicle:
2006 WRX
WRB

Default

Is your bike a 2 stroke by chance? If its a 4 stroke and you have oil in the crank case and oil in the cams, you're going to have the oil pump running and you'll have going to the cylinder walls. And if you're just talking about dry assembly of the pistons into the bore, the oil is just added to make it easier to put them in and to make sure they're lubed on the first crank.

Its well documented the best way to break in a 4 stroke car engine, and it must be the best way since F1/NASCAR/raceboats/pro level drag/etc break in their engines. Alternating cycles of high load and high vacuum pulls from low rpm to an rpm limit that slowly gets high as the pulls go on. Pro's do it on the dyno, you can do it in 3rd gear in a large abandoned parking lot, abandoned airstip, closed highway, etc. Engine is assembled with breaking lube, pro guys make their own special concoctions. Oil choice is the big controversy and I've never seen anything mentioning what the NASCAR/F1 engine builders use, I bet we never will. IMO it shouldnt matter, though something with a high zinc content would be preferred and something synthetic.
Leafy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 01:59 PM   #3
Evo-killr
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 252905
Join Date: Jul 2010
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Low Country
Vehicle:
2002 WRX STI swapped
Series Gray

Default

hmmm.. im all ears to other peoples opinion and experience
Evo-killr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 05:40 PM   #4
Crystal_Imprezav
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 84105
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: I'm a Newbie
Vehicle:
2005 Super Slow STi
CGM

Default

I install pistons dry. Just a coat of ATF on the cylinders after cleaning and some wd40 on the tapered ring installer.
Crystal_Imprezav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 06:18 PM   #5
ILikeBeans
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 173053
Join Date: Feb 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: St Paul, MN
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post
I install pistons dry. Just a coat of ATF on the cylinders after cleaning and some wd40 on the tapered ring installer.
As do I.
ILikeBeans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 06:48 PM   #6
jchafee
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 238453
Join Date: Feb 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: CT
Vehicle:
05 05 WRX
Aspen White

Default

I've always assembled my motocross pistons dry as well. Have yet to do it in an auto application. I will on my upcoming build though. What brand tapered ring compressors are you guys using? And are they as much more effective than a clamp style as they seem?
jchafee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 07:00 PM   #7
rushdylan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 337170
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: hesperia, California
Vehicle:
2003 wrx
silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
Is your bike a 2 stroke by chance? If its a 4 stroke and you have oil in the crank case and oil in the cams, you're going to have the oil pump running and you'll have going to the cylinder walls. And if you're just talking about dry assembly of the pistons into the bore, the oil is just added to make it easier to put them in and to make sure they're lubed on the first crank.

Its well documented the best way to break in a 4 stroke car engine, and it must be the best way since F1/NASCAR/raceboats/pro level drag/etc break in their engines. Alternating cycles of high load and high vacuum pulls from low rpm to an rpm limit that slowly gets high as the pulls go on. Pro's do it on the dyno, you can do it in 3rd gear in a large abandoned parking lot, abandoned airstip, closed highway, etc. Engine is assembled with breaking lube, pro guys make their own special concoctions. Oil choice is the big controversy and I've never seen anything mentioning what the NASCAR/F1 engine builders use, I bet we never will. IMO it shouldnt matter, though something with a high zinc content would be preferred and something synthetic.
my bike is a 4 stroke. and yes you are right, there is oil in the crankcase and oil in the head where the cams/buckets are. however, my cylinders are brand new and cleaned, if not, they are honed and cleaned with a solvent to remove any type of oil. a brand new piston should have no oil and if it does, ill clean it too, i even wipe down the rings. the whole point is to get the rings to seal and set in as good as possible for those 2-3 seconds that the oil has yet to hit the piston from an oil jet. im a little confused with your post, were you saying that f1 and nascar do a dry rebuild as ive described?
rushdylan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 07:02 PM   #8
rushdylan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 337170
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: hesperia, California
Vehicle:
2003 wrx
silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jchafee View Post
I've always assembled my motocross pistons dry as well. Have yet to do it in an auto application. I will on my upcoming build though. What brand tapered ring compressors are you guys using? And are they as much more effective than a clamp style as they seem?
i dont see what could be different? my 250f engines always come apart looking awesome and always have great compression! i just wish i had hard proof that this was better, but i dont. however, i dont see why it cant hurt to take ALL measures to increase seal and especially on a boosted engine!
rushdylan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 07:03 PM   #9
Leafy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 330625
Join Date: Aug 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: MA
Vehicle:
2006 WRX
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rushdylan View Post
my bike is a 4 stroke. and yes you are right, there is oil in the crankcase and oil in the head where the cams/buckets are. however, my cylinders are brand new and cleaned, if not, they are honed and cleaned with a solvent to remove any type of oil. a brand new piston should have no oil and if it does, ill clean it too, i even wipe down the rings. the whole point is to get the rings to seal and set in as good as possible for those 2-3 seconds that the oil has yet to hit the piston from an oil jet. im a little confused with your post, were you saying that f1 and nascar do a dry rebuild as ive described?
They may or may not do a dry rebuild. But do you not prime the oil pump before the initial startup?
Leafy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 07:33 PM   #10
jchafee
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 238453
Join Date: Feb 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: CT
Vehicle:
05 05 WRX
Aspen White

Default

The point behind this is to keep the top and second ring dry so they wear into the cylinder walls immediately. Those two are what do the bulk of the sealing. So in theory, if the rings are installed dry, they will remain dry but the skirts will get splashed, provided the oil control rings do their job. Regardless of priming the oil system.
jchafee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 08:26 PM   #11
rushdylan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 337170
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: hesperia, California
Vehicle:
2003 wrx
silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
They may or may not do a dry rebuild. But do you not prime the oil pump before the initial startup?
in a way, but you cant neccesarily "prime" an oil pump in a dirtbike. sure, it could prime itself before it finally fires up if ive kicked it 3-5 times. if i split the cases and all oil has drained from all oil passages, i will rotate the crank to get some juices flowing
rushdylan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 09:15 PM   #12
woodys77
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 192147
Join Date: Oct 2008
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Maine
Vehicle:
2007 STI EfiLogics
422whp 421wtq fpgreen

Default

I always use the dry method
woodys77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 09:22 PM   #13
rushdylan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 337170
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: hesperia, California
Vehicle:
2003 wrx
silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodys77 View Post
I always use the dry method
awesome! this is going over much easier than it has in the past on other forums. ive had people explain how idiotic i am
rushdylan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 09:42 PM   #14
john 1badSTI
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 77470
Join Date: Dec 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: grove city ohio
Vehicle:
04 sti 10.41@141
on e85@ 30psi--spinning

Default

I have and always will use marvel mystery oil(like atf) when installing pistons,back when I was building some of the fastest gsxr and hayabusa motors in the country thats how I did the cylinders and the performance spoke for itself.
john 1badSTI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 10:07 PM   #15
rushdylan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 337170
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: hesperia, California
Vehicle:
2003 wrx
silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by john 1badSTI View Post
I have and always will use marvel mystery oil(like atf) when installing pistons,back when I was building some of the fastest gsxr and hayabusa motors in the country thats how I did the cylinders and the performance spoke for itself.
well, looks like thats working for you! my dad gave me his busa after he crashed it and quit. i decided to get rid of it too and got me a f250 as straight across trade. pretty sweet deal! just curious, what 1/4 were they doing?
rushdylan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 10:27 PM   #16
k mier
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 98000
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: MO
Vehicle:
05 sti e85@420hp

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rushdylan View Post
awesome! this is going over much easier than it has in the past on other forums. ive had people explain how idiotic i am

You're an IDIOT!

Feel better now?
k mier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 11:10 PM   #17
rushdylan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 337170
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: hesperia, California
Vehicle:
2003 wrx
silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by k mier View Post
You're an IDIOT!

Feel better now?
just like ole times
rushdylan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 11:11 PM   #18
ckyguy68
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 316296
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Metro Detroit
Vehicle:
2006 STIROID
10.5@131 on 29psi

Default

I mean, as soon as you crank the engine the sleeves get oil!
ckyguy68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 04:03 AM   #19
k mier
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 98000
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: MO
Vehicle:
05 sti e85@420hp

Default

I've always used a light coating of two stroke oil on the cylinder wall of all my mx rebuilds, two and four stroke. If you follow the proper break in procedure everything will seal without problem.

Back in the day when mx cylinders were cast I'd read several articles, (way before internet), that supported a bike broken in hard and fast would be a faster bike. I would assume that also applies to plated cylinders. Only difference, back then if you foo'bared a top end job you simply went to the next size, today if you mess up it's a $500 cylinder.
k mier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 12:09 PM   #20
rushdylan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 337170
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: hesperia, California
Vehicle:
2003 wrx
silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by k mier View Post
I've always used a light coating of two stroke oil on the cylinder wall of all my mx rebuilds, two and four stroke. If you follow the proper break in procedure everything will seal without problem.

Back in the day when mx cylinders were cast I'd read several articles, (way before internet), that supported a bike broken in hard and fast would be a faster bike. I would assume that also applies to plated cylinders. Only difference, back then if you foo'bared a top end job you simply went to the next size, today if you mess up it's a $500 cylinder.
I've always rebuilt and raced. by that I mean, I slapped in a top end and then hauled ass! I once read in motocross action that you should 'treat your dirtbike like a chainsaw, open the box and cut wood' what they meant was, start it and ride it hard to get them rings to seal. I do a dry rebuild and ride it hard too! being totally honest, my top ends last longer than my friends who has the same exact bike. who knows
rushdylan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 04:07 PM   #21
Turn in Concepts
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 93646
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
Many Track Records
Let us help you go fast!

Default

I'm not for or against at this point. Still thinking about it.

What I'm wondering is the longevity. In your situation you're refreshing something like once or twice a season. For our typical customer they are looking at rebuild once or twice a lifetime.

What I would like to know is while I can see that it would mesh the walls and rings very quickly what are the long term aspects?
Turn in Concepts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 04:47 PM   #22
tachrev
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 115260
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Dover, DE
Vehicle:
04 WRX
205/22E Hybrid w/ VF39

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckyguy68 View Post
I mean, as soon as you crank the engine the sleeves get oil!
But the sleeves/cylinder walls aren't pressure oiled, are they? I guess if the rods are notched to spray the cylinders/pistons...or you had oil squirters.

Otherwise the sleeves are splash oiled. So you still have a few seconds of "dry" time to seat the rings.

Or I'm missing something, which is very possible.
tachrev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 05:15 PM   #23
ckyguy68
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 316296
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Metro Detroit
Vehicle:
2006 STIROID
10.5@131 on 29psi

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tachrev View Post
But the sleeves/cylinder walls aren't pressure oiled, are they? I guess if the rods are notched to spray the cylinders/pistons...or you had oil squirters.

Otherwise the sleeves are splash oiled. So you still have a few seconds of "dry" time to seat the rings.

Or I'm missing something, which is very possible.
Oiling holes in the pistons feed the oil rings which in turn leave a coating of oil on the cross-hatching on the cylinders. The oil rings 'wipe' away the excess but the cross hatching retains a certain amount.

They would be dry until the engine built oil pressure which you should always do before you fire it.
ckyguy68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 05:20 PM   #24
Irv Weissmanhowerton
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 278519
Join Date: Apr 2011
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Phatbotti
Vehicle:
30r E85 sti 450+whp
kb'izzle

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
I'm not for or against at this point. Still thinking about it.

What I'm wondering is the longevity. In your situation you're refreshing something like once or twice a season. For our typical customer they are looking at rebuild once or twice a lifetime.

What I would like to know is while I can see that it would mesh the walls and rings very quickly what are the long term aspects?
Amen to that


after a couple times, or a trans fail, 90-95% would have to call it quits putting 5k + labor each time into a 25-30k car probably only worth 15k in good condition at the time of it blowing
Irv Weissmanhowerton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 05:47 PM   #25
woodys77
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 192147
Join Date: Oct 2008
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Maine
Vehicle:
2007 STI EfiLogics
422whp 421wtq fpgreen

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckyguy68 View Post

Oiling holes in the pistons feed the oil rings which in turn leave a coating of oil on the cross-hatching on the cylinders. The oil rings 'wipe' away the excess but the cross hatching retains a certain amount.

They would be dry until the engine built oil pressure which you should always do before you fire it.
Your not understanding how oil gets to those holes though...
woodys77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2024 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission
Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.