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07-01-2013, 08:16 AM | #101 |
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Also note the difference in additive levels compared to the Amsoil Euro uoa in the bitog link. Would you be willing to testify under oath that the oil was in fact, Amsoil Euro 5W-30?
You can always send in an unused sample to see if it has been reformulated. I believe the low ZDDP in the other link is closer to how a low SAPS oil should look though. -Dennis
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Last edited by bluesubie; 07-01-2013 at 10:13 AM. |
07-01-2013, 12:02 PM | #102 | |
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I was actually referring to the previous UOA which you did take from the pan, I thought maybe some RT6 or something got mixed in, thus thickening the sample. If the pan was brand new, I wouldn't expect any contamination issues. This latest one is so thin it makes me wonder if it's lab error, maybe ask Blackstone to confirm the KV100 number. It could also be that they mixed up your sample with someone else's. Gathermethewool's UOA showed 11% shear, which while not great, is much more believable. The discussion over at BITOG is interesting. Like I said before, this is the oil Amsoil would recommend for a VW 2.0t (GTI/TT/A4), and those things are murder on oil, especially the gen 1 engines (pre-TFSI) they make a WRX look positively kind to oil. So the idea that this low-SAPS oil would obviously not be up to the task of a WRX seems strange to me. I found this discussion at BITOG (link) which seems to indicate that the Euro manufacturers screwed up yet again when translating requirements to the North American market. Apparently the low-SAPS oils aren't up to long drain intervals in gasoline cars due to ethanol and sulfur content in North American fuel, though they do fine in diesels. |
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07-01-2013, 12:10 PM | #103 | |
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I do have some 5w30 left over that wasn't used, I'll send in a sample of that when they send me more bottles. I'm all out right now This was the second batch of Amsoil 5w30 Euro that's been through the car, they both burned about a quart so I'm surprised to see the Visc 100 difference between the two. Not sure if it's got something to do with my poor sampling method on the older report skewing those results, (post 69) or if I got a "bad batch" the second time around. |
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07-01-2013, 12:12 PM | #104 | |
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07-01-2013, 12:37 PM | #105 |
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I called BS - they said they will rerun the test this afternoon and should be able to get back to me tonight.
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07-01-2013, 01:09 PM | #106 |
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gps - Not sure about the A4, but the 2.0T TT/TTS definitely specs VW 502 and not low SAPS oils. Motul actually advises against the use of low SAPS oils in certain applications and in certain European countries (depending on the fuel quality I presume).
http://www.motul.com/system/product_...pdf?1302202191 -Dennis Last edited by bluesubie; 07-01-2013 at 02:24 PM. |
07-01-2013, 03:14 PM | #107 | |
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502 is an obsolete spec in any market but North America, completely replaced by 504 in the rest of the world. |
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07-02-2013, 06:25 PM | #108 |
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07-02-2013, 08:48 PM | #109 |
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07-09-2013, 08:41 AM | #110 |
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GP/Dennis,
Any thoughts on the updated #'s? |
07-09-2013, 10:20 AM | #111 |
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Viscosity is still low, but slightly better but I'm still surprised the additive levels are as high as they are.
I would probably be trying to find out if Amsoil reformulated this oil by looking for VOA's or contacting Amsoil's technical department. Not that the uoa is really bad, but more so just to confirm BS's additive levels. -Dennis |
07-09-2013, 04:36 PM | #112 |
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Sorry, I was away for an extended holiday weekend. I'll also apologize for the previous confusion and incomplete comments on my part, it'll teach me to post too fast without looking closely at the results.
I'm still perplexed. Dennis is right, the additives look off and so does the viscosity. Your 13,743 mi UOA of Amsoil Euro looks right, both for viscosity and additive levels. This 17,726 mi UOA looks like a more typical GF-5 synthetic than a low-SAPS European HD 5w30. Look at the Moly, Boron, Calcium, Zinc and Phosphorous levels, they're all substantially different. Combine that with the unlikely eventuality that Amsoil's quality base stocks sheared by 25% and I still think something smells. I'm going to guess that either Amsoil mis-labeled your oil, and you got something like XL or Signature Series xw-30 in a Euro-Series bottle, or Blackstone mixed your sample up with someone else's. Most likely the latter. I'll echo Dennis' advice, call Amsoil's tech department and ask them about the additive levels (and viscosity). Maybe ping Blackstone too, let them know that the two samples are supposed to be the same oil. |
07-10-2013, 08:18 AM | #113 |
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Thanks for your replies. I already spoke to Blackstone and explained the situation. They basically said not to worry about it as the results were good.
I also already emailed AMSOIL. I'll give them a call sometime this week when I get a chance. |
07-10-2013, 10:09 AM | #114 |
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You're being extremely diligent in this. Kudos for continuing to pester Blackstone and Amsoil.
Results were good? Big deal if those results were for another car, you paid for results from your car. Since you're getting your oil from Amsoil any way, maybe consider firing Blackstone and getting uoa's from Amsoil. They're ~$10 cheaper than Blackstone when TBN is included. |
07-10-2013, 12:17 PM | #115 | |||
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I received a response from AMSOIL: Quote:
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I will consider sending my next sample to both AMSOIL and Blackstone to see how the results come back. I am very curious to see if they would show the same results. |
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07-10-2013, 02:06 PM | #116 |
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It looks to me like Amsoil is confirming Dennis' and my suspicions that Blackstone swapped your sample. I would treat the 13,700 mi UOA as what to typically expect from Amsoil Euro 5w30 in your application, and treat the 17,700 mi sample as lab error.
Too bad you won't be running the Euro 5w30 any more, it would have been nice to see some trending with it. Maybe I'll switch to it from Redline just for kicks (probably not). We'll see how the full-SAPS 5w40 looks, I'll bet it performs well, but no better than cheaper, easier to get RT6. |
07-10-2013, 03:41 PM | #117 | |
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5L AMSOIL = $38.80 1 Gal T6 = $21.00 It ends up being very close when you add my discount and equal out the amount of oil. We'll have to wait and see. I've got another 2,200-ish miles to go until I hit 5k on this oil. |
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07-10-2013, 04:17 PM | #118 | |
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There are some very good WRX uoa's on Amsoil HDD 3000 over at bitog. FWIW, here's another opinion from someone very knowledgable about Amsoil. He pretty much agrees with me about not running the girly man oils.
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-Dennis |
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07-16-2013, 08:36 PM | #119 |
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Since we're talking low-SAPS oils in gasoline cars here I thought I'd post a link to Artem's UOAs with Amsoil Euro 5w30. It's not a turbo Subaru, but it's a modded Civic Si, driven hard. It held up well, including the TBN, wear metals were also excellent.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...ue#Post2405247 All in all, I'd say the jury is still out on low-SAPS oils in gassers in the US. Gathermethewool is modded and shows a lot of fuel, 1wrxtra's latest doesn't look like Amsoil Euro, and his previous UOA looks pretty good. Now if only we could find some M1 ESP and Pennzoil Ultra Euro UOAs in gassers... Oh, and Dennis- take a look at the Lubrizol chart of 504/507, it pegs the meter for wear, sludge, piston deposits, and oxidation. The performance specs of 504/507 (Low-SAPS) certainly don't scream "girly-man oil" to me... There's always risk in change of course, but in a few years with the low-speed detonation requirements of GF-6, lots more oils might be "low-SAPS". http://origin-qps.onstreammedia.com/.../pc/index.html |
07-16-2013, 11:28 PM | #120 |
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Found my old gear oil UOA.
Anyone remember seeing this like a year or so ago? 75w90 is the norm, and as you can see that's NOT what was in the gearbox. It was probably ran closer to 5,000 or 6,000 before I drained it. Whatever the hell this oil was, it was so thin that by the time I pulled the dipstick out, it would show just a bead of oil on the end. After the UOA I changed it to some 80w90 but it was too late. Again, this was a over year ago, and the transmission has since been rebuilt, as the syncros were toasted. It wasn't immediate that this oil did its damage, but within 9-10 months all the gears were grinding lol. Just thought some of you wouldn't mind seeing a gear oil UOA for once. |
07-17-2013, 08:10 AM | #121 | |
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http://www.motul.com/system/product_...pdf?1303836087 Why don't you hire Terry Dyson to test a few low SAPS oils like he did on the original GC? It's probably only a few grand. And now for a manly uoa, Red Line 5W-40 with a quart of Red Line 40WT race oil. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1891050 Where's Uncle Scotty? dOOOOOOd! I've been doing this since most of these snotty nosed kids were in diapers. Yes, I know that loading up with tons of AW additives isn't always an ideal solution (especially due to deposits). I think it's probably a good idea to keep a low SAPS oci in a turbo Subaru at 5k miles though or under unless you plan to do some trending with TBN and even TAN. I still like mid SAPS Motul X-clean for the low phos and high-ish zinc. Edit: I checked VW 504 on the Lubrizol comparison tool and it's impressive. MB229.5 is as well. -Dennis Last edited by bluesubie; 07-17-2013 at 08:51 AM. |
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07-17-2013, 08:12 AM | #122 | |
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-Dennis |
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07-17-2013, 09:54 AM | #123 | |||
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Liqui-Moly 4200's (504/507) product page recommends use in all VW/Audi engines except some diesels, and reads: Quote:
Quote:
If I were to try a low-SAPS oil in my car I would certainly restrict the OCI to 5k mi until I had some trending. The Motul you mention is a VW 502/505 oil, superseded by 504/507 in the rest of the world, but the safer bet here in the land of Sulfur and Ethanol. |
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07-17-2013, 02:15 PM | #124 | |
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...and no, I literally never went back after that. Started doing my own maintenance instead. Then a couple months back I had Andrewtech work their magic and its smooth sailing now. Still can't believe how thin that gear oil was though. |
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07-17-2013, 06:58 PM | #125 |
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I would suspect it's not actually gear oil, though it's possible it sheared that much. The gear oil from my dad's Allroad came back at 9.92 cSt after 145k mi.
Many MTLs these days are just liquid delivery systems for anti-wear and friction modifier additives, and are really thin. OEM lubes from VW, Honda, GM and Ford are all like this. The commercial version of the GM fluid is Pennzoil Syncromesh. I'd bet the dealer used a MTL rather than gear oil because they didn't understand (or didn't care about) the unique requirements of a Subaru AWD gearbox. |
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