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Old 04-23-2009, 05:43 PM   #1
MConte05
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Default Feeling a bit overwhelmed about Tuning Boost

Posted this over at RomRaider too, but can't hurt to throw it here as well.

To get started, I have a 2002 WRX that is currently running Testes1010's base 02 WRX map (http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic4075.html). He helped me out in fine tuning the map to better fit my car, and the rev2 logs are from my car as well. The map does feel good on the car, but I am getting confident enough that I want to start really fine tuning it to better suit my needs and driving style. One of the first things to tackle (at least I think) is the boost, I am aiming for the quickest and most effective spool-up and boost pressure as I do a lot of Rallycross so having quick spool at lower-to-midrange RPM's is ideal for me. As well as a somewhat economical map for everyday driving. Right now the map does spool up quickly, but at small throttle response it quickly goes into 5-10 psi of positive boost, looking at the Target Boost tables for the map definitely shows that.

Alright, so a lot of talking. Basically in the past week or so I have been researching non-stop about properly tuning my Boost and such, I've mapped out my compressor map in Excel, done the calculations for most efficient boost on the stock TD04-13G, etc. etc. yet when it comes to finally getting ready to modify the Target Boost table and Wastegate Duty Cycle I chicken out because everything feels a bit overwhelming. I've got papers all over my desk highlighted to hell about various ways to approach tuning the Boost, but before I do anything I want to bounce it off you guys, and listen to any suggestions. My mod list is as followed:

Stock TD04-13G
Stock WRX Intercooler
Stock BCS
P&P Header, heatwrapped
Catless Up-pipe
Perrin Divorced Wastegate Catless Downpipe
P&P Throttle Body

The values that are on the map that is in use on the car right now:

Target Boost


Wastegate Duty Cycle


Turbo Dynamics Continuous


Turbo Dynamics Burst



These are the goals I want to aim for:
- Retain Target Boost of around 17-18psi
- Zero to small amount of boost for cruising on light throttle, hoping to increase MPG
- Quick as possible spool up for harder driving (Rallycross in mind)
- Run safely even with higher intake temperatures (Rallycross intake temperatures on my old 2.5i in the summer were around 120-130 sitting in the grid, 90-100 during a run)

This is where I come to a roadblock, even after reading as much as I can, and looking at a lot of maps, I still don't feel 100% confident in myself making a Target Boost map and a WGDC map to start off with. Ive seen plenty of "finished" boost maps and such, but nothing showing what someone started with. If someone could help me out with that, it'd be much appreciated. After having a base map for Target and WGDC, I assume I'd start logging and correcting slowly bit by bit, but that is another question of mine. What should I be logging exactly? Please add or subtract from this list:
- RPM
- Primary Wastegate Duty Cycle
- Manifold Relative Pressure
- Throttle Opening Angle
- Total Timing
- FLKC
- FBKC

If I understand correctly, I'll be trying to match the WGDC that is logged with the WGDC that is on the map? So log, interpret data, adjust WGDC to match logged data, log again, adjust, and so on? How exactly do I adjust the Turbo Dynamics maps to better fit the car? When looking at other people's TD maps and comparing to Teste's and Stock, the values seem to be all over the place.

Hopefully after having some of these questions answered, and having a confident base Target Boost and WGDC map, I'll start logging and fine tuning. I will try to log what I change each time and why and results to get your inputs.

Thank you very much guys for your help!
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Old 04-23-2009, 06:19 PM   #2
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On the 2.0L WRX, your WGDC will look similar to that, regardless of what you do. The stock BCS is terrible and will not hold boost well without turning the WG arm significantly.

To be perfectly honest, if you want quick spool and good boost control, get a 3-port BCS and tune that. I would also recommend "smoothing" out both your WGDC and target boost tables, as well as lowering the low throttle boost targets. Your car can't hit 15 PSI at 2500 and 50% throttle, so don't ask it to.

Personally, I don't like turning the WG arm, so I ask all the local folks I tune to purchase a 3-port BCS if they want to run more then the stock BCS will allow; which is normally 13-15 PSI of boost.

Here's what I use as a base for target boost and WG when doing your MY car at stage 2.



Also, what is going on with your turbo dynamics burst? What made you change the values in the positive boost error to how they are now?
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:26 PM   #3
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I honestly can't tell you why the values are the way they are. I didn't modify the values, Testes1010 provided a base map, and fine tuned it for me in two revisions. I happily flashed the map to my car, logged 5 runs, and sent him the logs for him to look over. Right now I am trying to understand these values and adjust them further to my liking.

Thanks a ton for your insight though, it helps to see a base table to work off of.

Last edited by MConte05; 04-23-2009 at 07:34 PM.
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Old 04-24-2009, 09:26 AM   #4
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Hello,

I have pretty much the same problem. I want to run more boost than 1,2 bars. But i cannot do that.

Where should be the problem?
Also when you log the boost, using ecuedit, the maximum boost readed is 1,2x.

I thought that maybe the problem is from there. I can use 3 way BCS, but i don't know is the best way to connect it and tune for it. Maybe you can help me.

This is my first post, because until now i just readed what is here, but because i didn't found what i wanted, i made my first post.

Thank you
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Old 04-27-2009, 07:33 PM   #5
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You can save some gas by lowering the target boost from 0-50% throttle opening.

you will never even get close to 10psi at 12% throttle. All you're doing is making the wastegate work when it doesnt need to be.

Since you can never hit 10psi there your turbo dynamics will also be building up which can cause boost oscillations at WOT.

And you shouldnt need 95% WGDC to hit 16.5 psi......that will also give you boost oscillations since the WGDC will jump to 95% when you go WOT and then have to taper back down to steady the boost at 16.5 psi.

He basically set it up so your turbo is maxed at all times at WOT.
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:53 PM   #6
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ur boost map could be a little more agressive. i do have a gm boost control tho, this is what i made

[Table3D]
12.0 24.0 36.0 48.0 60.0 72.0 84.0 100.0
2000 4.95 4.95 6.03 6.96 8.51 10.06 10.06 10.06
2500 4.95 6.34 7.73 9.28 12.22 15.01 15.01 15.01
3000 4.95 6.96 8.97 10.98 14.08 17.02 19.03 19.03
3500 4.95 6.96 8.97 10.98 15.01 17.02 19.03 19.03
4000 4.95 6.96 8.97 10.98 15.01 17.02 19.03 19.03
4500 4.95 6.96 8.97 10.98 14.08 17.02 17.02 17.02
5000 4.95 6.96 8.97 10.98 12.99 15.01 15.01 15.01
5500 4.95 6.81 8.66 10.36 12.22 14.08 14.08 14.08
6500 4.95 4.95 6.03 6.96 8.51 10.06 10.06 10.06

and ur wg map is ok, u could most likely go more agressive in the 2000 - 2500 rpm range to hit boost sooner, just log what ur actually hitting wgdc wise and adjust. mine looks like this (gmbc, i did have to adjust my boost limits tho).

[Table3D]
12.0 24.0 36.0 48.0 60.0 72.0 84.0 100.0
2000 14.8 25.0 30.1 69.9 69.9 69.9 69.9 69.9
2500 14.8 25.0 30.1 35.2 64.8 64.8 64.8 64.8
3000 14.8 25.0 30.1 35.2 55.1 78.1 78.1 78.1
3500 14.8 25.0 30.1 35.2 55.1 78.1 78.1 78.1
4000 14.8 25.0 30.1 35.2 55.1 75.0 75.0 75.0
4500 14.8 25.0 30.1 35.2 55.1 75.0 75.0 75.0
5500 14.8 25.0 30.1 35.2 44.9 57.0 57.0 57.0
6500 14.8 25.0 30.1 35.2 44.9 55.1 55.1 55.1

im hitting full boost about 3400-3500, but i have a lot to do yet. turbo dynamics burst loose the "0" at .77, i dont know y thats there, u can also be a lot more agressive from 1.70 - 2.94 cause this is only large throttle changes. in dynamic continuous u could be more agressive in the last 2 cells. mine is

[Table2D]
-3.00 -1.51 -0.50 -0.31 0.00 0.19 0.41 1.01 2.49
-2.80 -1.40 -0.40 -0.20 0.00 0.25 0.55 1.30 3.00

like i said, i have some tuning to figure out still, but this works for me.

Last edited by romanlynch; 04-28-2009 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 04-28-2009, 02:06 AM   #7
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i just dont get why you all are so aggressive down low

my hta green maps

Code:
	12	24	36	49	63	76	88	100
1000	-14.7	-13.77	-12.68	-11.76	-8.82	-5.88	-4.02	-2.94
2000	-11.14	-9.13	-4.8	-0.77	2.17	5.1	6.96	8.04
3000	-10.21	-8.2	-1.86	7.27	10.21	13.15	16.09	17.94
3500	-10.06	-8.04	-1.08	12.84	15.78	18.72	21.66	23.51
4000	-10.06	-8.04	-0.77	14.39	17.33	20.26	23.2	24.75
4500	-10.52	-8.51	-0.77	14.39	17.33	20.26	23.2	24.75
5000	-11.14	-9.13	-1.24	13.77	16.71	19.65	22.59	24.29
5500	-12.07	-10.06	-2.01	13.3	16.24	19.18	22.12	23.98
7000	-14.7	-14.08	-4.8	11.91	14.85	17.79	20.73	22.74
wgdc

Code:
	12	24	36	48	60	72	84	96
1800	0	0.0	0	33	33	33	33	33
2400	0	0.0	0	34	34	34	34	34
2800	0	0.0	0	35	35	35	35	35
3000	0	0.0	0	36	36	36	36	36
3200	0	0	0	37	37	37	37	37
3400	0	0	0	38	38	38	38	38
3600	0	0	0	39	39	39	39	39
4000	0	0	0	41	41	41	41	41
4500	0	0	0	44	44	44	44	44
5600	0	0	0	50	50	50	50	50
6200	0	0	0	53	53	53	53	53
7200	0	0	0	53	53	53	53	53
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Old 04-28-2009, 06:56 PM   #8
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So now I have a boost map and WDGC table ready to go thanks to your advice. How should I proceed with the timing? Back it off by two degrees all over the board? Or just in the WOT areas? Or not worry about it at all and adjust only if it knocks?
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Old 04-28-2009, 07:35 PM   #9
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I hope you just didnt copy/paste those WGDC values into your rom. Im running a Perrin EBCS and external wastegate so those values wont work with ur stock bcs.

Timing takes too long to explain. If ur running testes basemap you shouldnt really need to do anything to it. You may be able to add a degree or two in your conditions and with your gas.

theres only 1 way to find out.....

Have you tried reading the tuning guide thread? And Cobbs Access Port documents? They explain a lot.

I could talk for an hour straight about playing with the timing.....or i could just change your map for you in 5 minutes.
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Old 04-28-2009, 08:13 PM   #10
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I didn't just copy-paste the target Boost and WDGC tables, but rather referenced trends and such. I am about to go out and do some logging with this map, will come back with some results.

I have indeed exhaustively read through both those guides and as much as I can all around, but I always want to be very sure.

Anyways, out to do some logging, be back with some results!
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Old 04-28-2009, 09:22 PM   #11
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use testes timing table (lol) and play around with it if you want to, add here or subtract there an log.
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Old 04-28-2009, 09:31 PM   #12
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Old 04-29-2009, 04:38 AM   #13
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So you ask for 24 psi and the ecu makes 24 psi??? Can i do something wrong??? I readed the "How to tune Subaru thread" but still confused.

Can you explain me also?

Thank

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
i just dont get why you all are so aggressive down low

my hta green maps

Code:
    12    24    36    49    63    76    88    100
1000    -14.7    -13.77    -12.68    -11.76    -8.82    -5.88    -4.02    -2.94
2000    -11.14    -9.13    -4.8    -0.77    2.17    5.1    6.96    8.04
3000    -10.21    -8.2    -1.86    7.27    10.21    13.15    16.09    17.94
3500    -10.06    -8.04    -1.08    12.84    15.78    18.72    21.66    23.51
4000    -10.06    -8.04    -0.77    14.39    17.33    20.26    23.2    24.75
4500    -10.52    -8.51    -0.77    14.39    17.33    20.26    23.2    24.75
5000    -11.14    -9.13    -1.24    13.77    16.71    19.65    22.59    24.29
5500    -12.07    -10.06    -2.01    13.3    16.24    19.18    22.12    23.98
7000    -14.7    -14.08    -4.8    11.91    14.85    17.79    20.73    22.74
wgdc

Code:
    12    24    36    48    60    72    84    96
1800    0    0.0    0    33    33    33    33    33
2400    0    0.0    0    34    34    34    34    34
2800    0    0.0    0    35    35    35    35    35
3000    0    0.0    0    36    36    36    36    36
3200    0    0    0    37    37    37    37    37
3400    0    0    0    38    38    38    38    38
3600    0    0    0    39    39    39    39    39
4000    0    0    0    41    41    41    41    41
4500    0    0    0    44    44    44    44    44
5600    0    0    0    50    50    50    50    50
6200    0    0    0    53    53    53    53    53
7200    0    0    0    53    53    53    53    53
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Old 04-30-2009, 07:59 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sba View Post
So you ask for 24 psi and the ecu makes 24 psi??? Can i do something wrong??? I readed the "How to tune Subaru thread" but still confused.

Can you explain me also?

Thank
Yes, you can do something wrong.

I actually consider the target boost table the 4th most important table.

First, Max WGDC
Second, Initial WGDC
Third, Turbo Dynamics
Fourth, Target Boost

The intial and max wgdc make a window that your WGDC can run in (IE Init = 30% and Max = 40%, therefore your window is 30-40%). The turbo dynamics control the WGDC oscillations within that window.

Since the turbo will only make boost x at 30% WGDC up to boost y at 40% wgdc, you have effectively created your "target boost" or a boost window.

What i do is find the WGDC necessary to hit my target boost based on 4th gear sti or 3rd gear for the wrx. Then I set the max wgdc to 5% above that value and the initial to 5% below that value.

So if i need 35% WGDC to hit my target boost in 4th gear i set the initial to 30% and the max to 40%.

To answer your inital question "So you ask for 24 psi and the ecu makes 24 psi??? " the answer is yes and no. Yes, if you have setup the WGDC properly. No, if you have not setup the WGDC tables to match your target boost.

IE, you can set your target boost to 30 psi, but if your Max WGDC is capped at 20% then you will never come close to 30 psi.
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:57 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Yes, you can do something wrong.

I actually consider the target boost table the 4th most important table.

First, Max WGDC
Second, Initial WGDC
Third, Turbo Dynamics
Fourth, Target Boost

The intial and max wgdc make a window that your WGDC can run in (IE Init = 30% and Max = 40%, therefore your window is 30-40%). The turbo dynamics control the WGDC oscillations within that window.

Since the turbo will only make boost x at 30% WGDC up to boost y at 40% wgdc, you have effectively created your "target boost" or a boost window.

What i do is find the WGDC necessary to hit my target boost based on 4th gear sti or 3rd gear for the wrx. Then I set the max wgdc to 5% above that value and the initial to 5% below that value.

So if i need 35% WGDC to hit my target boost in 4th gear i set the initial to 30% and the max to 40%.
Bumping a not so old thread...

Phatron, can you go into a little more detail about how you bracket your duty cycle with the "initial" table?

I'm trying to soak up as much info as possible before I start tuning my own car. This made perfect sense when I read it yesterday. When I got home and opened up a ROM I was suddenly confused. I'm working with an 16-bit ECU. Unless I was looking at a wrong table, the initial off-idle table is a single row of data. I don't see how its possible to bracket all of the various duty cycles you need/use to achieve target boost and varying rpm and throttle %.

Ex. 4000rpm at 50% throttle is 60% wgdc and 4000rpm at 100% throttle is 85% wgdc.

It seems like I'd want to bracket my WOT values as those are the highest load, but I'm also less likely to spend time in that range under daily driving conditions.

Last edited by Scooby921; 05-14-2009 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:16 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post

To answer your inital question "So you ask for 24 psi and the ecu makes 24 psi??? " the answer is yes and no. Yes, if you have setup the WGDC properly. No, if you have not setup the WGDC tables to match your target boost.

IE, you can set your target boost to 30 psi, but if your Max WGDC is capped at 20% then you will never come close to 30 psi.
I would just like to add, and hopefully clarify for some of the people who may be confused when looking at the numbers without taking other factors into consideration:

Everyone has to remember, or at least take the time to note, that Phatron is running an HTA Green with meth injection. Trying to look at his tables and compare it to your TD04 is like comparing Apples to a Peruvian orphans toenail...

The TD04 will be out of it's efficiency past 18.5 psi (give or take a few tenths), so hitting (or trying to hit) 24psi on that turbo is not only ill advised, it is extremely dangerous. Once your turbo stops making boost, all it makes is heat. Higher EGT temps will destroy your turbo, not to mention your 02 sensors, and then it's all down hill from there.

..and I second the notion to get a 3 port BCS solenoid. That one little part right there (along with a properly mapped WGDC table) will increase your lower throttle response and you'll hit full boost about 500-750 rpm sooner. It really is a night or day difference.

Good luck...and be careful
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:22 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby921 View Post
Bumping a not so old thread...

I'm working with an 16-bit ECU. Unless I was looking at a wrong table, the initial off-idle table is a single row of data. I don't see how its possible to bracket all of the various duty cycles you need/use to achieve target boost and varying rpm and throttle %.
yeah, you want to look at the "Max" WGDC, not the initial.
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:50 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sooby-Doo View Post
yeah, you want to look at the "Max" WGDC, not the initial.
I know the max table is what ultimately controls the duty cycle, I was just intrigued by what Phatron mentioned in regards to a +/- 5% bracket between initial, actual, and maximum. It sounds good, but I don't see how that's possible when the "initial" table is a single row.
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Old 05-14-2009, 12:09 PM   #19
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Has anyone tried the "t-flip mod" by stitching the WG line and the compressor line to your stock BCS? I've done this and it reduced my max WGDC's by about 20% and my boost (during the winter) to hold high 17psi easily.





Edit: also more info http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ghlight=t-flip
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Old 05-14-2009, 12:31 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby921 View Post
I know the max table is what ultimately controls the duty cycle, I was just intrigued by what Phatron mentioned in regards to a +/- 5% bracket between initial, actual, and maximum. It sounds good, but I don't see how that's possible when the "initial" table is a single row.
My bad...I misunderstood what you were asking, I thought you were looking for the tables everyone else posted above...sorry 'bout that!
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Old 05-14-2009, 02:28 PM   #21
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It still can work exactly the same if your vertical rows in the max table are identical for each throttle position.
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Old 05-19-2014, 07:26 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
I actually consider the target boost table the 4th most important table.

First, Max WGDC
Second, Initial WGDC
Third, Turbo Dynamics
Fourth, Target Boost

The intial and max wgdc make a window that your WGDC can run in (IE Init = 30% and Max = 40%, therefore your window is 30-40%). The turbo dynamics control the WGDC oscillations within that window.
Are you just talking about 32-bit ECUs here? On a 16-bit ECU initial WGDC table doesn't exist. There's an intial off-idle table which doesn't appear to be what you're talking about here.

If the max WGDC is always 5% higher than what is required to reach the target boost, isn't it effectively irrelevant?

It seems like if you have it tuned and running properly then target boost and turbo dynamics continuous are going to be the most important as they're the only ones that should be in effect.

I may be dead wrong though. So this is really a question more than me disagreeing.

Trying to tune a 16-bit ECU and every time I find a thread like this, there are people giving 32-bit advise to a 16-bit problem, but I'm not experienced enough to figure out if that's actually the case or I'm just not understanding what you're saying.
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Old 05-20-2014, 08:30 AM   #23
quazimoto
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The tables changed names,if I recall correctly. Max WGDC is higher because it sets the threshold limit for the turbo dynamic tables and compensations. As weather/altitude change so does the required WGDC.
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