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07-22-2003, 02:13 AM | #51 | |
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I think SOA would want to check out each car first hand, otherwise they will might be replacing the engines of those ignorant to the fact later on down the road. Why wouldn't this be a recall? I know it will all get worked out and I have owned a Subaru now for about five years since the first 98RS came out here in the states. So I am not too worried. I just wish there was a better solution than me dropping the STi off for several days. I have been happy with the STi since day one, worried a bit with all the det talk, but then again I think my det is minor in comparison to some.
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07-22-2003, 04:23 AM | #52 | |
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Do they use 91 octane or 94? Do they drive the car in 100 degree heat, put it on a dyno? Waste of time. Just have the Ecu reflashed. The real issues then become: Does the Ecu reflash work...for those who have problems, and does it reduce power and if so how much? They need to measure crank hp with the Ecu reflash and release new hp numbers if need be. If there is no loss of power and torque then they also need to say so.....speculation will be rampant until they do. Lastly they deserve credit for jumping on the problem fairly quickly, though I still wonder how this issue managed to slip thru quality control. |
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07-22-2003, 04:35 AM | #53 | |
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Were there any reports of det./pinging in any of the magazine articles? How about all of the test drives in California where the highest octane is 91? Do you think the STi's had something other than 91 in them for the test? Quality Control can only report the issues. They can interrupt production to down machinery for repairs, but there isn't any further power in the department concerning production. |
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07-22-2003, 08:37 AM | #54 | |
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Join Date: May 2002
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Discussing the best way to handle these things is a great way to send SOA a message on how to best satisfy their customers. The cost of shipping these 20 ECU's out to set up a rotating system would be peanuts. And, once all of the cars have been reflashed, if they are so inclined, they could reclaim the 20 floating ECU's for new production, or keep them as inventory for replacements. Like I said, I have a daily driver, so it doesn't inconvenience me too much to leave my new baby at the dealer for a week. There are a bunch of STi owners who don't have a smokin' hot 96 Altima(no flames, please) to drive in addition to the STi. This small gesture would really go a long way to developing owner trust and loyalty. Problems happen, especially with brand new cars. The first run finds problems that can't be uncovered in prototyping, and I'm not complaining about that. But, the way these problems are handled is the very definition of customer service. bottom line: it's great that they're fixing it. It would be even better if they made a slight change to their plan to get the fix to people faster, with less inconvenience. |
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07-22-2003, 09:27 AM | #55 | |
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07-22-2003, 10:07 AM | #56 |
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When the WRX reflash came about, some of the larger dealers sent in an ECM from stock to get reflashed and used it to give quick turnaround. I doubt that will happen with the STi because of thw low number per dealer.
I actually count being without the car for a few days as a minor inconvenience, given that I get a loaner. |
07-22-2003, 11:29 AM | #57 |
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Glenn -
Yes, a loaner definitely makes it a minor inconvenience, if every ECU reflash is given that treatment. |
07-22-2003, 11:55 AM | #58 | |
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07-22-2003, 01:00 PM | #59 |
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I'll only take loaner if it is a Forester XT (2.5 Turbo). 13.8 quarter mile in a wagon sounds like fun.
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07-22-2003, 02:52 PM | #60 |
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I can understand why SOA may prefer to only have one ECU out for reflash - it's cheaper. SOA saves on materials and labor costs, and makes the dealers (some making a good profit on the STi, and others making a killing) fork over the money for loaner cars and warranty service.
If someone was making that much money off of my work product by adding a greasy handshake, smile, and possibly some undercoating, I would expect them to do the same thing. IMHO, the dealers should be forking over the cash to have SOA send them the equipment and software for reflashing the ECU. But hell is still on fire so that won't happen. |
07-22-2003, 04:04 PM | #61 | |
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Sorry, but the dealers clearly aren't the guilty party here. No busting on Subaru, because it seems they're trying to handle the problem as best they can. But, it's clearly their problem, not the dealer's problem. I would hope that Subaru is picking up the tab for the loaners, also, as this is not a dealership specific service issue, but rather a product line defect. |
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07-22-2003, 04:09 PM | #62 | |
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For some people, they'd rather not have the car for a week if it means having it fixed in a week, instead of having to wait 2 weeks (or more) for their dealer to be able to do it. For those of you that think having your car in the shop for a week is too much, then just wait for a month or so until your dealer can do it locally. |
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07-22-2003, 04:17 PM | #63 | |
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It is no offense intended to you, but I am very biased against car dealers, just like I am against real estate agents. And I am even more disgusted by the fact that they make the most money on the cars that sell themselves, especially when you aren't allowed a test drive, which IMHO is the only reasonable purpose for dealers to exist in the first place. But this is a different rant for a different day, and I apologise for mentioning it in this thread. |
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07-22-2003, 05:13 PM | #64 |
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So, as someone on Page 2 of this asked, and since I'm in a similar situation (waiting on my August STi delivery)
Are the new cars already flashed? Or may we still have to take them in and get them reflashed (ver 1.2? 2.0? whatver) *IF* they show signs of detonation? |
07-22-2003, 06:26 PM | #65 |
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When they do the PDI, you can ask them to check the ECM version with the SSM. If it is not the latest, then they can schedule you for an update.
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07-22-2003, 06:51 PM | #66 |
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I talked to my dealer today and they said they will do the reflash only if the check engine light comes on. =(
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07-22-2003, 06:57 PM | #67 |
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Jeez guys, get a grip. Every dealer has the ability to flash ECM updates in some capacity. The key problem is that there is only ONE flash cartridge in the country to perform such an update. It's not a matter of purchasing the equipment... the dealerships already own the equipment. The software is simply not available to execute the flash, for a variety of reasons.
I'm simply amazed that Subaru is offering a flash update at all. We should be down on our knees thanking them profusely, not bitching about the wait or the way things are being handled. Remember, in order to offer such an update, that update has to be tested and approved through the NHTSA and the EPA before it can be released. Any change to the emissions control on a vehicle has to be completely retested by the government and get its rubber stamp before it can be released to the public. The legal ramifications of such a change are mindboggling in their scope. It's absolutely incredible that Subaru has been able to respond to this issue as rapidly as they have done. -Porter Last edited by Porter; 07-22-2003 at 07:20 PM. |
07-22-2003, 08:50 PM | #68 | |
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sorry to the dealers out there, but c'mon- you wonder why dealers have a bad rap? seriously... |
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07-22-2003, 09:49 PM | #69 | ||
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The only time a big business company will scramble harder is if there is a safety issue. But either way, it's all about money...and nothing that we should be down on our knees thanking them for. They have their own best interest in mind. And like Ford had to in case of the Cobra ('00 or '01 model year?), when the car only made about 305 hp instead of the advertised 320 - they had to do a recall to provide a bunch of new parts...throttle body, chip...someone help me here, what else? Anyway, I'm willing to bet that the remap doesn't affect power, otherwise, they'll have to do the same as Ford. Myself, I bought the car specifically because it has all of 300 hp. |
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07-22-2003, 10:29 PM | #70 |
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It may well be that the car makes less power on 91 but then the figures I believe were quoted for >= 93 AKI.
In any event, not living somewhere where I can fill up on 93 or 94 every day, I would prefer the durability. |
07-22-2003, 11:02 PM | #71 |
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STiBro,,How long have you been around the Subaru community?I think what Porter is saying is,,this is damn fast for Subaru and I agree with him.As many of us know Subaru has a history of dragging their feet on issues like this that goes way back.For them to step up this fast with a fix or even admit that there is a problem is a pleasent surprise.
I do agree that the initial plan here for the reflash is inconveniant to some and yeah it's a new car yada yada,,but hey it's better then waiting 4 years to find out the clutch you replaced and payed for in your RS,,,,,,, is now covered under warranty my two cents Rudy |
07-23-2003, 08:15 AM | #72 |
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I agree that this is pretty fast response time, probably aided by the fact that Subaru is a pretty small company, with a well focused group dedicated to the STi.
I'm nitpicking the delivery strategy, but I think the quick response is commendable. |
07-23-2003, 10:09 AM | #73 |
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No, I don't work for SoA. All I'm trying to point out is that for Subaru to change the ECM programming and get it approved by the EPA so rapidly is amazing. Changes that go through the EPA approval process are infamous for their delay times, often more than half a year in the process, and sometimes longer than that. Realize that if Subaru changed something in the engine management system and it later was shown to negatively affect emissions in any way, Subaru could (and would) be charged up to $10,000 per car in fines from the federal government. If something like that happened, there would probably be no more STi.
In the past I've been one of Subaru's biggest critics, over the years I have accused them of dropping the ball on all kinds of things, for example the old threads on the ABS problem in the WRX. But in this case, I think they've stepped up and done the right thing. It's nice to see forthright response like this from a company that doesn't have a perfect track record of responding to owner complaints. It makes me feel pretty good about owning one myself, and helps justify the efforts that I (and many of us who were around from before the Impreza-RS.com days) have made over the years to promote the ownership experience in the enthusiast community. |
07-23-2003, 10:14 AM | #74 |
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Ford Mustang Cobra
It was the '99 Model year. They messed it up so bad they didn't have a 2000 model for the Cobra. They got it almost right in 2001 by increasing the compression ratio, among other things. Guess what, it caused pinging!!!!
They never did anything about it. I should know, I have one. It pings under load in 3rd. Not bad and not all the time. Some guys had melted/pitted pistons. Ford just handled them on a case by case basis. What subaru is doing is great! |
07-23-2003, 10:56 AM | #75 |
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Porter or deadbolt, supposedly one can log into Subarunet, scroll down the left side of the screen to 'Service' and then select 'Control Unit Reprogramming' from the dropdown box and this will open and allow you access to tables that will list reprogramming availability. I was curious whether there is any entry for the STi there yet and, if so, what does its description say?
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