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Old 10-28-2005, 05:26 PM   #1
spongejosh
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Default powder coating vs painting

i just got a pair of rs 6 spokes. i want to paint them gold but i'm kinda weary about powder coating.

heres the situation. i can get the wheels sandblasted, and powder coated gold for ~$45 per wheel

OR

i could pay to get the wheels sandblasted (guessing around $15-$20 per tire) and them rattle can them myself.

i don't feel like cleaning and sanding them myself. so that's not an option.

QUESTIONS: for anyone here who had rs 6 spokes powder coated.
any problems with the wheels? are they still strong? use them for racing?

i am planning on using them as my winter/rallycross wheels.

thanks
josh
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Old 10-29-2005, 02:22 AM   #2
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anyone?
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Old 10-29-2005, 02:53 AM   #3
endlesszero46
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i've had mines powdercoated, supposedly it's suppose to make the rim even stronger than traditional paint..the powdercoating company told me the rim would dent before the paint would chip, now im not stupid enough to try as they cost me 65 bucks a piece to powdercoat. if u plan to do it, make sure to ask if they can powder coat all except the centric hub, i.e. the center of the wheel...i had to have some one grind the thing down...and he said it was a pain...but overall the wheels are fine and perfectly balanced.

if you want to see the pictures...go to w*w.customgermanplates.c0m
u should see it on the product samples link.
peace.

btw if ne ones interested in buying them, leave me a message... =)
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Old 10-29-2005, 10:44 AM   #4
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A light sandblasting shouldn't hurt the strength of the rim, but cooking the wheel during the powdercoating process may ruin the heat treatment of the aluminum. It depends on what aluminum alloy, and it depends on the cooking temperature.
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Old 10-29-2005, 10:55 AM   #5
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I think the only way the wheel would fail is in some horrific accident. Metals are pretty tough... that's why we use them.

I plan to powdercoat quiet a few sets of my wheels... so please post results and details.
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Old 10-29-2005, 11:09 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbtoloczko
A light sandblasting shouldn't hurt the strength of the rim, but cooking the wheel during the powdercoating process may ruin the heat treatment of the aluminum. It depends on what aluminum alloy, and it depends on the cooking temperature.
No offence BUDDY, but you have got to be Joking! To say that a die/sand or draw cast, (let alone forged), wheel centre/sections would move during sandblasting, (not to mention shot peening), unless you sat with the blast gun in the same 50mm radius for 20 mins, is ludicrous!!

If you would like more detailed information on the manufacture, service and repair of one, two and three piece alloy and alloy magnesium wheels either in cast or forged states, please let me know. ( I have manufactured Mag wheels for many a race car..... )

cheers,

Sixpack Subaru
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Old 10-29-2005, 11:36 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixpack subaru
No offence BUDDY, but you have got to be Joking! To say that a die/sand or draw cast, (let alone forged), wheel centre/sections would move during sandblasting, (not to mention shot peening), unless you sat with the blast gun in the same 50mm radius for 20 mins, is ludicrous!!
Huh? I said that light sandblasting would not hurt the strength of the rim. What are you saying?
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Old 10-29-2005, 11:55 AM   #8
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^ yeah, very confusing!
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Old 10-29-2005, 02:08 PM   #9
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it's the heating of the rims when they cure the powder that i'm worried about. any one here with powder coated stock rims? who here knows anything about the process of production of the stock wheels?

josh
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Old 10-29-2005, 07:42 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixpack subaru
No offence BUDDY, but you have got to be Joking! To say that a die/sand or draw cast, (let alone forged), wheel centre/sections would move during sandblasting, (not to mention shot peening), unless you sat with the blast gun in the same 50mm radius for 20 mins, is ludicrous!!

If you would like more detailed information on the manufacture, service and repair of one, two and three piece alloy and alloy magnesium wheels either in cast or forged states, please let me know. ( I have manufactured Mag wheels for many a race car..... )

cheers,

Sixpack Subaru
Sounds like SixpackSubaru may have imbibed before reading your reply Mychailo

Oven temps in powdercoating are typically 400F for 15-20 minutes. From what I've picked up, this temp/time is enough to affect the heat treat of a T6 grade. What is the temp rane used for Al heat treating (figuring you know this stuff off the top of your head ).

Todd
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Old 10-29-2005, 09:49 PM   #11
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Seems like its in the 350 F range isn't it? For like 8 hours? Thats what I remember from skool?? But it has been awhile...
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Old 10-29-2005, 10:57 PM   #12
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powder coating gives a much more durable and nicer overall finish on the wheel then spray paint would. the curing process for powder coating does not reach the temperatures at that time period to effect heat treatment...at least from my view and experience (mech engineer with powdercoated our baja wheels...we broke out 1.25" .058 chromoly (edit sorry) control arms before the wheel, good enough for me)

Last edited by KIDREX; 10-29-2005 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 10-29-2005, 11:00 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryokosman
Seems like its in the 350 F range isn't it? For like 8 hours? Thats what I remember from skool?? But it has been awhile...
Yep, around 320F for about 24 hrs. If the wheels are only at 400F for 15-20 mins, it may not appreciably affect the strength of the alloy. I don't know that for sure though. I do steels for a living and not aluminum alloys. If anyone is intrestested, here are a few summaries on aluminum alloys:

more descriptive: http://www.bikepro.com/products/metals/alum.html

more technical: http://www.engr.ku.edu/~rhale/ae510/aluminum.pdf
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Old 10-30-2005, 12:46 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wawazat
Sounds like SixpackSubaru may have imbibed before reading your reply Mychailo
BTW, Hi Todd. :-) Didn't know you had three SVXes now!
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Old 10-30-2005, 05:50 AM   #15
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There are some stories here and there of powdercoated wheels failing. If I searched a bit I could probably find some pictures of some new Z06 Vette wheels that were powdercoated red. Shortly thereafter, during a track event, one of the wheels failed, and upon closer inspection the other 3 wheels all had cracks beginning to form.

I powdercoated a set of 17" UK WRX wheels. They were/are just street use wheels, so I wasn't too worried about possible weakening of the Al alloy. On my Mustang my track wheels are a set of powdercoated '95 Cobra R wheels that I bought on Ebay before I knew about the concerns with powdercoated wheels for track use. I've done a couple lapping days out here on the small, rather low speed "road course" and they're OK thus far. I intend to replace them before I do any serious road course work on the longer, faster road courses on the mainland.

Based on my experience with the UK WRX wheels, it seems that it can be pretty tough to get the color you want with powdercoating. We compared a lot of color samples to try to find something that would match the stock finish, decided on a sample to use, and the shop powdercoated the wheels. When I showed up to pick them up I was quite disappointed with the way they had turned out - the finish was great, but the color just didn't come out right. So we did some more comparing, they powdercoated a couple sample plates for me (so we wouldn't be relying on the little samples in their color books), and we chose another color. It was closer to what I wanted, but still not right. I just went with that, though. I eventually had them painted - color selection was very simple ("Paint these the same color silver as my BBS wheels." "OK.") and they came out right the first time.

Pat Olsen
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Old 10-30-2005, 01:33 PM   #16
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kidrex, were you in an accident or something? can you explain how you broke the control arms?

pat, do you think that the powder coat would make the wheels too weak for rallycross? i"m not talking hard core rallying, just romping the car around in the dirt.

mbtoloczko or anyone, do you know the "alloy number" for the stock rs wheels? by alloy number i mean the one that both of your links refer to ie. 3xxx.

thanks for the help guys
josh
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Old 10-31-2005, 11:43 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongejosh
...

mbtoloczko or anyone, do you know the "alloy number" for the stock rs wheels? by alloy number i mean the one that both of your links refer to ie. 3xxx.

thanks for the help guys
josh
Sorry, don't know what it is.
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Old 11-01-2005, 09:27 AM   #18
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Josh- The alloy designation will be of the Annn.nn form. The stock wheels are cast. No clue as to what heat treat they are. If anyone sends me a broken chunk of one I'll heat it for 30min at 400F and do hardness before and after. If the aluminium overages then there will definately be a difference.

(the four didget codes like 3030, or 6061, 2024, 7075 are for cold wrought grades)
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Old 11-01-2005, 10:31 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongejosh
kidrex, were you in an accident or something? can you explain how you broke the control arms?
na no accident, just beating on it. someone else designed them and i wasn't to sure of their strength...so i had to test them for myself. And it was fun...

come to think of it, i did crash it into a wall once and rolled it without my harness on...good thing i had my helmet cuz i got thrown out
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Old 11-01-2005, 02:04 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbtoloczko
BTW, Hi Todd. :-) Didn't know you had three SVXes now!
Three SVXes and by tomorrow two 2.5RSes too Mychailo.

Nick (LyveWRX) I can cut you a sample off a broken SVX rim I've got and can probably bring it to the upcoming Detroit area Rallycross Nov. 5th. I'd really like to know how 20 minutes at 400f effects cast Al wheels.

Todd
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Old 11-01-2005, 03:43 PM   #21
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Yeah, no problem, I'll be there this saturday. It'll only take like a day or two for me to get the data.

the 30min was to account for operator error... The difficulty is that each alloy is going to have slightly different reaction times to heat aging. Temperature has an exponential effect on the process while time has a linear effect.

Try to get a piece with good flat parallel surfaces, that makes hardness testing work better.

And it doesnt need to be bigger than like 2"x2"xthickness... or whatever...
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Old 11-02-2005, 10:14 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyveWRX
Try to get a piece with good flat parallel surfaces, that makes hardness testing work better.

And it doesnt need to be bigger than like 2"x2"xthickness... or whatever...


looking at the round wheel trying to figure out where I can get a 2"x2" piece with flat parallel surfaces

So, you are going to test hardness after oven aging and draw conclusions on modulus Nick?

Todd
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Old 11-02-2005, 10:23 AM   #23
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I knew I guy from my old job that powder coated his alloys, asked him about and he said "Make SURE they use the low temp process" I assume then that there is a lowertemp (he indicated under 200 F) process for powder coating?
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Old 11-02-2005, 03:43 PM   #24
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Hardness before, heat at 400F for 30min (unless someone with some powder coating experience has a better reccommendation), hardness test after.

Modulus for all metal alloys is relatively insensitive to heat treat condition, alloy content, and residual stress. What is sensitive to alloy content and heat treat condition is yield strength and consequently ultimate tensile strength.

Some aluminium alloys can be subjected to a process called precipitation hardening. This process takes advantage of the precipitation of nano-scopic (cant be seen w/o a TEM) particles that are coherent with the surrounding matrix. These particles induce strain into the matrix which prevents dislocation movement. They also can stop dislocation movement directly. A charecteristic of this process of age hardening, or precipitation hardening is that as either the time or temperature are extended the precipitates coarsen losing their coherency with the matrix. Once the coherency with the matrix is lost the strengthening effect is reduced. At a large enough precipitate size the strength could be quite low.

Artificial aging to T6 temper produces the highest strength and the optimum precipitate size. For some alloys the T6 aging temperature is low and the times are short. (IE A356.0-T6, sand cast, 3-5hrs@310F) Some alloys will even age at room temp. Since temperature has an exponential effect on the growth of these precipitates using a temperature that is higher than the aging temp can have catastrophic effects even at {very} short times.

The only way to truly know what is going to happen is to perform an experiment. HOWEVER- The information from this experiment would only apply to the exact same alloy under the same heat-treat condition.

(Todd try the spokes....)

hmmmm...... Metallurgy lesson over... You will be quizzed on saturday.
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Old 07-29-2006, 12:51 PM   #25
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Bit of thread gravedigging here. I'm looking about getting a set of the RS 6-spokes refinished, and I've been reading through multiple threads on powdercoating vs. painting for forged or cast wheels, and one question I have I can't find an answer for :

Are the RS Wheels, either 5-spoke or 6-spoke cast or forged?

Anyone have a definitive answer?

Thanks!
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