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Old 12-01-2009, 04:55 PM   #151
FourOnTheFloor65
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Originally Posted by 25rsti View Post
whats the difference between hellical and suretrac?
The Suretrac is made by AP Racing. The same company that makes big brake kits, clutches, etc. It is a very strange design that uses 12 little free floating cams or nuggets that fit in groves in the diff case and recessed triangles in plates on the ends of the axles. The cam nuggets can slide left and right in the differential, and the cam profiles are designed in a way that torque from the engine forces the cams to hold both axles at the same rate of speed, but when there is a speed differential from one side to the other, like when turning, the cams slip within their groves and allow this speed differential. They can be a little noisy and slow to respond, but with more torque from the motor, the more lock force it has. This is not the case in a Helical. This site has some neat pics of a Suretrac toward the bottom of the page. It is not a Subaru one but the design is the same.

http://www.mycaterham.com/66828/117416.html

Here is a good description on it from Subaru.

http://wrx.grapon.com/techdocs/dccd/...%20Booklet.pdf

Helical diffs work a lot differently. The most common types of helical diffs are JTEKT's Torsen (like some STis use) and ones like Eaton's TrueTrac. They have two helical worm gears on the ends of the axles and then 3 pairs of long shaft like helical worm wheels bolted into the case that connect the two together. The gear teeth are designed specifically so that the worm wheel pairs cannot turn the worm gears on the axles but the worm gears on the axles can turn the worm wheels. This has to do with the friction between the gears, their size, tooth profile, orientation, and ratio. This is the same way winches work, like in cranes, so the load on being hoisted won't simply turn the motor and fall. When cornering, one axle, turning the worm gears, can rotate the worm wheels enough so that one wheel can spin faster than the other. But when torque is applied from the motor the worm wheels are locked and cannot rotate one axle at a different speed than the other. It really is an ingenious design. It responds immediately to torque from the motor but doesn't have a true lock force per say like the suretrack. Here is a cool video of how the Eaton one works.


And next is one of the Torsen. You can see that with the Eaton the worm wheels are meshed together, and on the Torsen they have spur gears on each end that mesh the worm wheel pairs together.


Here is a site that gives the history behind the Torsen and probably a better explanation of how it works.

http://members.rennlist.com/951_racerx/PS84Gleason.html
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Last edited by FourOnTheFloor65; 12-01-2009 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 12-01-2009, 05:05 PM   #152
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thanks for the VERY informative response. not to be "noobish" but is there a clear better of the two?
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Old 12-02-2009, 04:59 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by 25rsti View Post
thanks for the VERY informative response. not to be "noobish" but is there a clear better of the two?
I have had pretty much no personal experience with the Helical/Torsen type diff so I am probably not the greatest source of info on this. So keep that in mind. There are probably lots of people on here that have direct experience with both.

I will tell you, though, the helical and suretrac will feel similar simply because of their designs. Their construction is totally different from one another but they are both mechanical, clutchless, torque sensing differentials. Unless you are going to be competitively racing the car the effective differences between the two will be negligible in my opinion.

The suretrac is a highly refined update to the 1935 Porsche ZF diff, that was known to wear out quickly. The suretrac may still wear slightly faster than the Helical but I don't think it is much of an issue. The Helical/Torsen diff seems to be the new hot thing, even though it was designed in 1958. A lot of different manufactures use them in factory cars, and have proven them reliable.

The one feature that I absolutely hate about my suretrac is that when one wheel has no traction and the other does, like when one wheel is lifted in the air or on ice, the diff will not transfer torque to the wheel with traction. It works just like it is open. There needs to be at least a slight amount of traction for the LSD action to take place. But the bad news is the helical does the same thing. This made it very interesting trying to pull up into the parking spot at my apartment last winter because of a mysterious 3 inch thick sheet of ice under only one side of my car. My V8 Spec C 6mt and my V7 R180 both use suretracs. I just ended up figuring out a way to get a run for it and not hit the neighbor's truck. Then when spring came and rains washed out a bunch of the gravel I would lift a rear tire pulling in and get stuck again.

For this reason, the static lock force created by a mechanical clutch type diff would be a lot better for me, at least in the rear. You may not have stupid problems like this. It all comes down to what is best for you. There is never a universal "best". Both are decent differentials. Neither one will maim you, kill small animals, or destroy the ozone layer. It's not like one explodes every 100k and one doesn't. Do as much research as you can, ask people who seem credible, be cynical, and use your best judgement.
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Old 12-02-2009, 07:11 AM   #154
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Thanks. It just seems a little weird; almost like a normal wrx awd wouldnt have as many problems. Tell me if im wrong. Im also going to be getting a v8 spec c trans with the R180. I guess im going to save some more $$ so I can get the spiider from Jeff @ DCCDPro. Ive been chatting with him back n fourth through emails. Seems like the best thing to do is get the spiider controller so im not ALWAYS in open @ 35:65
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Old 12-02-2009, 07:49 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by 25rsti View Post
Thanks. It just seems a little weird; almost like a normal wrx awd wouldnt have as many problems. Tell me if im wrong. Im also going to be getting a v8 spec c trans with the R180. I guess im going to save some more $$ so I can get the spiider from Jeff @ DCCDPro. Ive been chatting with him back n fourth through emails. Seems like the best thing to do is get the spiider controller so im not ALWAYS in open @ 35:65
Everything with cars is a compromise. What you might view as a problem, might seem, to Subaru, to be a more reliable solution for a particular part. Most Impreza drivers simply want their car to not get stuck in the snow. They don't care if Subarus choice of differential makes the car faster around a track. With the STi Subaru knows that the customer demographic is a little different. Getting stuck in the snow is of less concern, (they put summer only tires on it after all). The typical buyer wants performance on decent road conditions, hence the torque sensing LSDs instead of speed differential sensing like the viscous coupler type. Plus, most rear R180 diffs are clutch type, that have some static lock force. The helical and suretracks are usually used in the front. The front differential needs to be a little more forgiving, because of the fact that the wheels connected to it steer the car.

Running the DCCD open sucks. Mine has been that way for over a year. Right now I am in the process of rewiring the whole car so I can run auto climate control, 04 STi ABS, my V7 Spec C EJ207, and the factory 04 DCCD control system. If I hadn't had plans to do this, I would have gotten the Spiider Deluxe or Dual mode controller. I have installed two of these and driven both cars with them. The controllers are easy to install if you have even the tiniest bit of wiring experience. I wired the one Deluxe controller up, including the gauge feed wires for the STi cluster, in about 3 hours. Without the cluster wires it took about 2 hours. They work very well, and Jeff (Spiider) has great customer service and is very knowledgeable.
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Old 12-20-2009, 03:27 AM   #156
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Anyone know if late 04 STI (male) axles is a direct fit into the 06 STI 6 speed?
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Old 12-20-2009, 11:59 AM   #157
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If they are male, they will fit just fine.
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Old 12-21-2009, 03:23 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fierysun View Post
Anyone know if late 04 STI (male) axles is a direct fit into the 06 STI 6 speed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kpluiten View Post
If they are male, they will fit just fine.
That's funny though, b/c Subaru lists the late 04 STi axles as one part # and then they list the 05-07 STi axles as a different part number, making it look like on paper they would not fit.

http://www.subarupartsforyou.com/cp_...el=Impreza+STI


But they are the same price, and we know that a male end will fit into a female end.

Seems like another SNAFU on Subaru's part
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Old 12-21-2009, 03:56 PM   #159
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I think the difference may be at the hub side, not at the transmission side.

Call the dealership to confirm? I hope I do not steer you wrong.
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Old 12-22-2009, 10:06 AM   #160
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04 sti had early axles... Female and late axles which were male. Only thing i could think is possibly a thickness difference because of the 5x100 bolt pattern? I have never had 04 axles next to 05 alxles...
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:48 PM   #161
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Am I screwed?

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Old 12-22-2009, 08:26 PM   #162
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thats an early 04 tranny? with late 04 and up axles... You should be able to yank those stubs out of the tranny. Thing is you need to change your seals when you pull the stubs out and get 05 sti left and right axle seals... Then you can sell your stubs online here for prolley a 50 or so...
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:29 PM   #163
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i "supposidly" got a jdm v7 trans kit. looks like the trans is v7, maybe the axels are different
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Old 12-23-2009, 06:42 AM   #164
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anyone?
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Old 12-23-2009, 04:04 PM   #165
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What exactly did the former owner of the trans tell you, you were buying?

Does anyone know if the JDM VER 7 trans used female or male axles, or both?

It is possible to put in a VER 7 gear set in an 04 USDM trans.
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Old 12-23-2009, 04:07 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by BlueHeavenWRX View Post
What exactly did the former owner of the trans tell you, you were buying?

Does anyone know if the JDM VER 7 trans used female or male axles, or both?

It is possible to put in a VER 7 gear set in an 04 USDM trans.
i bought it froma vendor, and it looks like the axles are from a different car i would suppose. I NEED to know what to do or buy
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Old 12-23-2009, 05:26 PM   #167
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It seems to me to be a V7 Trans and V8 axles
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Old 12-23-2009, 06:01 PM   #168
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Would i just need to take out the stubs and buy the axle seals like srREXed said?
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Old 12-24-2009, 12:25 PM   #169
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this should be a sticky
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:08 PM   #170
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what vendor did you buy it from? Normally they are pretty understanding and willing to work with you. If they shipped it like that to you, im sure if you sent them the photos they can make right. Meaning send you the female axles. but of course you can do it my way and just buy the axle seals and get your tranny in. Although, you have an 02 wrx? If so you can just use your axles... You would be pleasantly surprised to find they plug right up...
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Old 12-24-2009, 04:16 PM   #171
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i have an unusual project going on. 2002 RS completly stripped down. took out all of the harness' and ecu. re-ran wrx harness' and ecu. built hybrid motor. now dropping the rest of my drivetrain to replace with V7/V8 trans kit. I will most likey just buy the axle seals. Thats all i need right?? take out the stubs, buy axle seals and insert my female axles?
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Old 12-26-2009, 06:23 AM   #172
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do i need circlips too or just axle seals?
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Old 12-26-2009, 03:49 PM   #173
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there should be clips on your male axles. If not, use the clips off the stubs. May be a pita to remove but some tiny needle noses should do the trick. Yeah, just purchase 2005 sti left and right axle seals. Then just use a pry tool to pop the old seals out. And when you put the new ones in make sure you know the lft is only left and the right is only right. That should do it homey.
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Old 12-26-2009, 04:08 PM   #174
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thanks bro haha ive been checking in every few hours to see if anyone could help me. you seem to be my only hope. Ive been reading EVERY sticky, thread and whatnot about these swaps.
Does anyone know about the seals in the rear diff??? Looks like one of mine is broken
Also, how do you take out the stubs in the front diff?
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Old 12-27-2009, 06:09 PM   #175
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anyone?
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