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Old 07-05-2001, 06:26 PM   #1
subaruwrx
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Default Stroker Kits for WRX!!!

Anyone hear about the TODA Racing Stroker kit for WRX? I remember that they were able to bore and stroke it to 2.2 litres. I dont remember the prices, but that is something that i would be looking into. Any advice is helpful...
--Adam
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Old 07-05-2001, 06:48 PM   #2
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Technically it is 2.12 liters I believe but yes they are pretty nice kits and come with forged pistons/rods/crank, rings, pins and bearings all blueprinted and balanced. CR is 8.5:1. Price is $3180.
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Old 07-05-2001, 06:59 PM   #3
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How does the kit affect the rod-stroke ratio, if at all? Do they do it correctly?
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Old 07-05-2001, 08:47 PM   #4
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Anytime you increase the stroke of a motor you worsen rod stroke ratio but I don't think that the boxer motor is as susceptible to rod stroke ratios as a convention 4 cylinder. You will be increasing stroke from 75mm to 79mm but your bore is still MUCH larger at 92.5mm.
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Old 07-05-2001, 11:12 PM   #5
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If any stroking is done to my car, it will be with the JUN package. Their kit strokes it to about 2.193 liters if I'm not mistaken, but it is pricy at just over 5 g's. JUN/Cosworth quality though!!!

Mike S.
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Old 07-05-2001, 11:26 PM   #6
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Default JUN stroker 5 gs???

i was sent a brochure for the JUN kit, but the prices were in yen, which i haven't had the time to look at the chart and convert over yet, but 5 grand??? thats the price of the full stage 2 COBB kit, **** i could have COBB build me a sweet full closed block engine to handle 25psi for just over that. i was considering it, but out of my wrx custom building budget, i don't know if i want to spend 2/3 of it on the engine alone, that would be without the turbo too. i think for that price JUN might be built for a second engine maybe over the few monthgs after i build the car. thanks for the info guys
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Old 07-06-2001, 02:25 AM   #7
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An observation, if I may.

If you intend on increasing the displacement of your 2.0L, or knew you were going to increase the displacement, then perhaps you should consider procuring an EJ25 and adding in suitable lowered compression forged pistons and forged con rods.

I know for a fact that Crower makes forged con rods for the EJ25 engine, and there are other domestic manufacturers who make them too. JE, Arias and others make forged pistons, addressing that issue.

There's no need, IMO, to pay for the hype of a JUN or TODA stroker that only gives you an extra 200 CC for $3-6K. For that, you can build a monster sleeved (closed deck) EJ25 that can be bored out to nearly 2.8 liters.
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Old 07-06-2001, 02:30 AM   #8
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Mike S: The JUN kit offers only another 128cc of displacement by taking the stroke from 75mm to 79mm, whilst the BPM stroker for example takes it further to 82.5mm to obtain a true 2.2l.

DigitalBoy: I believe the EJ25 block is too weak to safely hold more than 24psi boost and make good (high) power. I guess it depends how far you want to go and what you want to end up with.
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Old 07-06-2001, 02:36 AM   #9
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god, you are dead wrong. You can easily change the stroke of a motor while maintaining the r/s ratio, by relocating the wrist pin of your piston. Domestic aftermarket has been doing this for about...30 years. R/S matters in EVERY application, regardless of piston/crank/rod geometry relative to gravity. Why? Because sideloads are measured in 100s of Gs, and at worst (e.g. a boxer motor), it's 1 G. It is NOT immune, and any stroker kit that doesn't address this is TRASH, I don't care who makes it.

Since I can get custom pistons from JE and custom rods from Cunningham (have already twice), I am pretty sure I won't have to worry about it next time. Since I've yet to find an import rod that competes with Cunningham's products, I'll be very careful when looking.

R/S affects tuning, affects reliability and ultimately, affects what the motor's characteristics can ultimately be. Piston speeds are determined by this ratio, combined with rpm.

Regarding the 2.whatever conversion for the 2.5, I would say this. You are weakening the block significantly. The heads are less efficient than the DOHC 2.0 heads, and ultimately, you need CFM, period. I don't believe in comparing a 10.0:1 compression motor with a bolt-on turbo kit to an 8:1 compression factory engine. ANY engine can be tuned to silly power, but making power with a 2.0L is probably safer, just from a structural standpoint on the block. I am speaking ultimately here, not your friend with the 10 psi 2.5L (I love this, btw =) ). The HyperREX is safe to what...650 hp? Think Rigoli can make that? I do.
take care,
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Old 07-06-2001, 03:32 AM   #10
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Spurner,

The only potential weak point on the EJ25 is the cylinder deck, which isn't fully closed. There are sleeves available that replace the stock piston sleeves on the EJ25, converting it to closed deck.

This gives the EJ25 ample support to make big HP numbers, i.e. 600+ on 100 octane plus gasoline, or even more on methanol/alchohol fuels.
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Old 07-06-2001, 03:57 AM   #11
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DigitalBoy, of course you can still make a lot of power with an EJ25, but even after a lot of strengthening work it will never be stronger than an EJ20, which are good for up to 40psi boost, whilst I've never heard of an EJ25 running more than 24psi safely. On an EJ25 the water galleries encroach into the skirt wall weakening the whole block, even after sleeving it.

In Australia, the five fastest 4WD's all utilise the EJ20 block, while the only 2.5litre wrx in the top ten is in 9th place.

Definately not saying a 2.5l is flawed in any way, just that if it really was better the Rigoli's or somebody would use it to build into a hell machine.
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Old 07-06-2001, 04:00 AM   #12
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Yep, and there went your cooling at the top of the cylinder. No reason to want to dissipate as much heat as possible from that area, eh? Ever heard of a LeMans engine with a closed, sealed block like that? Uh, no, since sealing an open deck block is decidedly not the same thermodynamically as an engine block designed to be closed at the top. You want to keep heat as low as possible when building an all out engine like this. It's a real problem, and much of tuning is spent eliminating hotspots here and there (and other little things like turbulence, etc. etc. etc.). Of course, this doesn't keep pro stock guys from filling their water jackets with epoxy...then again, they won't make it down the back straight of LeMans more than once, let alone have serious reliability.
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Old 07-06-2001, 06:57 AM   #13
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Default which to chose

ok, so here is the question, should i go with the Cobb closed deck with the internals they sell and have them build me an engine or just get it and have it built by someone i know OR get a stroker kit? i would probably use the TODA kit because for the price of the JUN kit i could build the entire closed deck engine and have it running over 30 psi while i would have the block and everything in the shop for the JUN kit still and the whole engine would cost me about 8 grand and i was told it could only handle 30 psi.

SPURNER:: how safe is it to run 40 psi on a 2.0, obviously professionally built will all new everything inside. how many people are doing it? are any of the cars streetable? thanks
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Old 07-06-2001, 07:44 AM   #14
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Default may i state my view?

Don't worry about whether the block can take 40 psi. My car produce more than 400hp with just 14.5 psi. I use JUN 2.5 stroker kit and a TD 06 turbo. So isn't that enough?

Sorry for the interuption.

Hyper
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Old 07-06-2001, 09:28 AM   #15
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Spurner: I don't know where you got your info from, but I called JUN and had my vendor call them and they both told me that the kit strokes it to 2.19 liters. Not 2.128 liters like the Toda kit. Not trying to argue or anything, would just like to know how you came up with that number when I got it straight from the manufacturer and another confirmed source.

Mike S.
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Old 07-06-2001, 11:16 AM   #16
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I think you have us all charged up, Hyperex! You know, at 1.5 bar =).

Hyperex, is that stroker kit for a 2.0? If so, that's amazing, I wasn't aware that Jun could get that much more displacement out of the 2.0L!

40psi on the street is just about impossible, unless you live awfully close to race gas. It's probably enough boost to pass that sassy Paseo, though
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Old 07-06-2001, 11:40 AM   #17
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Default Re: which to chose

futurewrxowner: it's never totally safe to run any more boost than stock. I considered both the BPM and JUN kit and chose BPM because it was a true 2.2litre kit, the Rigolis and others run 35psi boost without damage to any internals so based on that I am happy with my choice. Also, the JUN kit was going to cost _twice_ as much to get to me than the BPM kit.

I have heard bad things and good things about both companies and their products, but I'm happy with my choicer so far. A Blitz DSBC will only run 35psi boost but my BPM agent told me that somebody had made 7/800HP (forgot which) using a BPM stroker kit running 40psi boost, and a large turbo with a narrow powerband, without the aid of nitrus or methanol. The engine was okay at these levels, it's more a matter of trying to keep the heads from getting blown off.

Hyperex: (btw you have a legend car!), for some people 400HP is enough, for others too much is never enough

subywan-kenobi: I got my information and pricing directly from the sales agent at JUN in Japan, I don't know if the US agents have different products. The stock stroke on a wrx is 75mm, the stroke on JUN's kit is 79mm, the stroke on BPM's kit is 82.5mm. Although JUN market them as 2.2litre kits, I was always of the opinion that they only ever offered an additional 128cc of displacement. JUN don't take it as far as BPM because it's not fully tried and tested, although I have never heard of anything bad happening to them. Do the maths on the numbers if you like (I can't). But if you can get a 2.2l kit from them, so be it!
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Old 07-06-2001, 01:02 PM   #18
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Thanks for the info Spurner, I will have to look into the BPM kit then cause it sounds like it is just as good, if not better than the JUN kit and half the price.

Mike S.
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Old 07-06-2001, 03:26 PM   #19
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gee, Jun's kit happens to be the same 79mm stroke that a run-of-the-mill production EJ25 uses.

buy a EJ25 core block and install your JE pistons and crower rods.

keep the revs under 7500, you'll make plenty of power and have the reliability too. (piston speed will be lower than a WRX STi's 72mm stroke @ 8100rpm)

best of all it's a whole lot less than a Jun kit and there are plenty of EJ25s around for a core.
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Old 07-06-2001, 03:31 PM   #20
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the EJ25 couldn't handle 35psi tho, if you're going to spend the money for the engine swap, go all out with custom built, don't go swapping to a weaker block.
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Old 07-06-2001, 03:48 PM   #21
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what's weaker about the block? have you seen both of them, hmmmmm?

35psi? This isn't Gran Turismo... someone posted above that their STi (formerly equipped with a 2.0L, a better one that our WRX gets even) makes more than 400HP on a 2.5L and only 1 bar. Or is this the game where we post inane comments without thought or reading the previous posts?
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Old 07-06-2001, 04:07 PM   #22
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no on the contrary i read the entire thread, i was informed a couple times that the 2.5 is simply a weaker block then the 2.0 and no, this isn't grand tourismo, BUT if he is looking to do a stroker kit then he obviously is looking for some nice horse and torque so he will probably be running more then 15-20 psi. why spend 6 grand on a stroked engine to only use 60% of its potential? when i build my wrx i am going to force all the power out of every component i can without going near the breaking point. yes, this is possible if you know what you are doing and if your tuner knows what they are doing. sorry but for 6 grand on a custom engine, 400 horse isn't crap to me, i am looking to get at least 500 horse, i am not stupid, insane, retarded or anything else, i just love to have fun.
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Old 07-06-2001, 04:37 PM   #23
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You guys crack me up..

You talk like you have first hand experience of the various blocks and which is stronger.

The design of the 2.5 and 2.0 block is the SAME!!!

same oil channels, same bearing design.

Like colin said, get the 2.5 crank which is 79mm stroke. Fit some uprated rods and pistons (with a lower comp ratio than 10) and fit a big turbo!

why the hell does everyone think the 2.0 block is stronger ? How many of you guys have seen one ?

The head design is the same too (solid lifters, dohc). The newer cars now use over buck shims.

So what makes a factory 2.0 better ?

Same oil pump, same sump, same water pump, same timing belt design.

With the uprate internals, who knows what the limit it... but 500+ is easily feasible.

I was going to say I have never heard of a crank let go on a subie, but Jude's did.. but I think that was a one-off... never heard of any others.

The 79mm stroke, combined with 0.5mm oversize pistons does indeed give less than 2.2l


The problem with stroking further, is that the piston rings start to cross the gudgeon pin insertion hole.

You can stroke to about 81'ish mm before this happens.

I would be intrigued to see how Jun got 2.5L.. I personally think they have used a 2.5 bottom end


J.
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Old 07-06-2001, 04:42 PM   #24
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jason, I believe they are 100x79 ... effectively a production EJ25 for all intents & purposes, 1mm overbore.

future-- no offense but this is / was somewhat of a serious topic. I'm not saying you have to have a WRX to play, since I only have an RS I hope not at least -- but some measure of reality needs to stay in this discussion. If you have some firsthand, relevant information please share it... otherwise. well ya know.
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Old 07-06-2001, 04:44 PM   #25
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i was told that the coolant flowed through different paths in the two different blocks and the 2.5 were too close to the cylinder walls to run too high of a boost. i never stated that i had first hand experience, i was going off what i was told my numerous people on THIS forum
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