|
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
10-08-2012, 02:40 PM | #1 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 332887
Join Date: Sep 2012
Chapter/Region:
Tri-State
Location: Orange County, NY
Vehicle:2012 WRX stage 2+ DGM (sedan) |
EWG Setups - EBCS vs MBC vs Hybrid
OK, so I finally got my EWG setup up and running. Currently, I have a Tial 38mm EWG, Grimmspeed UP w/ 38mm flange, and I'm running the hybrid boost control setup. The dump tube vents straight to atmosphere and is loud as a squirrel bumping boots with a donkey. If anyone has questions, feel free to send me a pm and I'll help you as best as I can. Lots of info in this thread, but I can understand if it's too much to skim through to get the answer(s) you may want.
Original post: Before any decides to flame me, yes I have searched the forums for info (over 20 threads to be specific ). I have figured out a few tidbits of info, but they were lacking in detail. I have been getting boost creep up the bum lately and an EWG seems to be the best way to eliminate it, but I won't get one until I fully understand what setup(s) would work best. This is what I have gathered from them so far: 1) MBC allows for the constant "screaming" sound at WOT, but bypasses the ECU boost control 3) EBCS produces the flutter sound most of the time because it constantly opens/closes the EWG to maintain target boost What I'd like to know from you guys is the following: 1) Boost control method (EBCS, MBC, Hybrid?) 2) EWG size (38mm or 44mm?) 3) Do you have wastegate "flutter"? If so, what rpm interval(s) do you hear it at? 4) EWG Spring size 5) Target boost Please try to avoid derailing this thread or asking questions I want this thread to be informative for us newbs when we decide to run an EWG so that we don't have several new posts a week about them.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Last edited by Mr Wrex; 10-03-2013 at 04:09 PM. |
10-08-2012, 02:55 PM | #2 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 265405
Join Date: Nov 2010
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Traverse City Michigan
Vehicle:2013 Audi Black |
1. 3port EBCS
2. 44mm 3. Had flutter with initial tuner, new tuner got rid of it all together(at least I can't hear it anymore) |
10-08-2012, 03:02 PM | #3 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 261612
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Vehicle:2002 WRX - 750WHP 9.5s @ 150mph |
I have a 44mm EWG and I've used all of the setups you mention (MBC, 3 port EBCS, and Hybrid). The MBC will not flutter. The Hybrid setup usually will not flutter, but it depends how it is tuned. If it's tuned so that the MBC is doing all the work at WOT, then it won't flutter, but Hybrid systems are not always tuned like this.
A 3-port EBCS will always flutter. It can be tuned to be less noticeable, but it's always there. Depending on EWG spring(s) and tuning it can be very noticeable. For an EWG setup on stock turbo, a 38mm EWG will probably be the way to go. Going overly large on a smaller turbo isn't going to help anything. At worst it can make boost harder to control. |
10-08-2012, 03:09 PM | #4 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 288037
Join Date: Jul 2011
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: University Place, WA
Vehicle:2015 LightingRed WRX 11' WRX sold**14' XV sold |
I also had to go to EWG on my 11' WRX because of boost creep. It solved the problem instantly. I was already using a EBCS and just added the EWG. I choose a 38mm. Anytime the EWG is open ~15psi+ it flutters. If you dont want the flutter you can choose a MBC. At one time I disconnected my EBCS and ran it on WG spring pressure and it was a smooth constant dump. The flutter doesnt bother be but its not for everyone.
Make sure you get with your tuner on what spring to run. Im running about .1bar to light but I experience almost NO taper. Make full boost (19.5psi) @2700rpm also =D (VF52) |
10-08-2012, 03:13 PM | #5 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 332887
Join Date: Sep 2012
Chapter/Region:
Tri-State
Location: Orange County, NY
Vehicle:2012 WRX stage 2+ DGM (sedan) |
|
10-08-2012, 03:16 PM | #6 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 274499
Join Date: Feb 2011
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: RI
Vehicle:1994 5.8T Cobra 755rwhp @ 16psi |
IMHO, it sounds like absolute crap. Why wouldn't you plub it back into the exhaust? That noise alone would make me seek alternatives over running an EWG!
|
10-08-2012, 03:18 PM | #7 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 288037
Join Date: Jul 2011
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: University Place, WA
Vehicle:2015 LightingRed WRX 11' WRX sold**14' XV sold |
Quote:
Like I said in my post. NOT EVERYONE WILL LIKE IT. Honestly I think its fun. Its very surprising to people. |
|
10-08-2012, 03:30 PM | #8 | |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 261612
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Vehicle:2002 WRX - 750WHP 9.5s @ 150mph |
Quote:
Mine only opens at 20+ psi, so I don't really mind. I think it sound cool anyways. |
|
10-08-2012, 03:47 PM | #9 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 265405
Join Date: Nov 2010
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Traverse City Michigan
Vehicle:2013 Audi Black |
Quote:
I love the external dump, sounds like you jumped from a 4cyl to a V12, and scares the crap out of people a lot of times. Here is mine, back when we were tuning(this was AP+first tuner) Im now at 21psi, and open source tuned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTJP...eature=mh_lolz |
|
10-09-2012, 08:26 AM | #10 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 332887
Join Date: Sep 2012
Chapter/Region:
Tri-State
Location: Orange County, NY
Vehicle:2012 WRX stage 2+ DGM (sedan) |
so true! plumbing it to the DP wouldn't get rid of the flutter and it'd take away some power the EWG provides...
I was checking out different ways to hook up a 3-port EBCS and this one caught my attention. Would running hoses to the top and bottom of the EWG essentially be the same as just running off the EWG spring? |
10-09-2012, 08:30 AM | #11 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 4273
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: CT
Vehicle:2015 Taco & 2015 Legacy Ltd. |
No. The spring pressure holding it shut with the addition of the boost supply pressure holding it shut is greater than the boost pressure trying to press against the spring alone.
|
10-09-2012, 08:37 AM | #12 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 332887
Join Date: Sep 2012
Chapter/Region:
Tri-State
Location: Orange County, NY
Vehicle:2012 WRX stage 2+ DGM (sedan) |
Quote:
Also, mind telling me/us what EWG setup you're running? Or which ones you've tried? |
|
10-09-2012, 08:53 AM | #13 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 265405
Join Date: Nov 2010
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Traverse City Michigan
Vehicle:2013 Audi Black |
This is my setup
|
10-09-2012, 09:31 AM | #14 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 321321
Join Date: May 2012
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: STL
Vehicle:2010 Ford SVT Raptor Tuxedo Black |
Saved. I had many of the same questions as the OP. I'v just been researching EWG and how it helps boost control on stock turbos. Thanks for maki the thread OP, especially since there isn't a Unabomber manifesto for this.
|
10-09-2012, 09:47 AM | #15 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 332887
Join Date: Sep 2012
Chapter/Region:
Tri-State
Location: Orange County, NY
Vehicle:2012 WRX stage 2+ DGM (sedan) |
Technically, Senor Una has a boost control FAQ that contains info on EWGs... it just lacks the specifics that most of us would like to know (no offense man ). Once I collect enough data from everyone, I'll try to compile it into a more coherent FAQ to alleviate the confusion/myths.
|
10-09-2012, 10:20 PM | #16 | ||
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 4273
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: CT
Vehicle:2015 Taco & 2015 Legacy Ltd. |
Quote:
See post #13's diagram, This has boost pressure at the bottom of the EWG trying to open it and then the EBCS will regulate how much pressure is allowed to the top of the EWG to help hold it shut. It let's some off and back into the inlet hose as requested by the ECU. Quote:
For the '06 WRX, I used a hybrid setup with a GM EBCS and a Hallman MBC. For the '07 STI I used a setup like post #13. |
||
10-09-2012, 10:27 PM | #17 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 332887
Join Date: Sep 2012
Chapter/Region:
Tri-State
Location: Orange County, NY
Vehicle:2012 WRX stage 2+ DGM (sedan) |
Ok cool. So for each setup, what spring did you use, what psi did you run, and did you notice fluttering? If so, what rpm range did it flutter at?
|
10-09-2012, 10:54 PM | #18 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 4273
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: CT
Vehicle:2015 Taco & 2015 Legacy Ltd. |
I used whatever came with the AMS kit for the '07 STI and whatever my friend had gotten with the used setup for the WRX (I think it was a yellow spring...). It had some flutter and it was based on approaching the target boost.
|
10-10-2012, 08:47 AM | #19 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 332887
Join Date: Sep 2012
Chapter/Region:
Tri-State
Location: Orange County, NY
Vehicle:2012 WRX stage 2+ DGM (sedan) |
So far the general consensus seems to be:
1) EBCS will always flutter, but tunes can reduce the severity 2) hybrid can eliminate flutter depending on how it's tuned 3) MBC will never flutter I'm still pretty interested in the hybrid setup if anyone has some input on theirs |
10-10-2012, 12:37 PM | #20 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 221580
Join Date: Aug 2009
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Omaha, NE
Vehicle:2011 WRX STI Satin White Pearl |
Good thread. Answered some Q's i had since im thinking of going EWG
|
10-11-2012, 09:00 AM | #21 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 332887
Join Date: Sep 2012
Chapter/Region:
Tri-State
Location: Orange County, NY
Vehicle:2012 WRX stage 2+ DGM (sedan) |
Quote:
Dug up some pretty interesting comments on hybrid setups: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...602674&page=22 Go to the following posts: #531 #539 #543 #548 (talks about cons of pure MBC) Grimmspeeds hybrid setup: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/atta...3&d=1347293244 To sum it up, it seems the hyrbid setup works by using the EBCS to control boost during partial throttle and the BCS to control boost at WOT. This retains the ECUs ability to run the lean mode should something go wrong. |
|
10-11-2012, 09:14 AM | #22 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 179023
Join Date: May 2008
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:07 CGM WRX TR Dom 1.5xtr + PPG's |
i dont know why you are so caught up on "flutter", as it makes no difference whatsoever.
wastegate's work by diverting un-needed exhaust around the turbine and out an outlet (external wastegate in this case). Now the computer needs to tell the wastegate when this valve should open. There are 3 different ways for the car to communicate with the wastegate 1. wastegate spring pressure - once the exhasut gas reaches or exceeds this spring pressure, the wastegate opens, and all extra air leaves via wastegate. Can only open at one pressure (the pressure of the wg spring). 2. MBC - acts just like a wastegate spring, except you can control the psi at which the wastegate valve opens/closes. can only open at one pressure (PSI) that the user sets it at 3. ebcs - uses computers to control the pressure at which the wastegate opens. The nice thing about ebcs is that they can change the level of psi that causes the wastegate to open, unlike MBC or wastegate spring. This allows you to run higher boost at low rpm, and taper off boost at higher rpm. this is verry common on subarus running smaller turbos. It shoul be noted this can not be done on a MBC. with an MBC you only get one target and that is the only level of boost you can run in any gear at any rpm. With EBCS you can run different boost at ifferent rpm. This allows for greater control in tuning, and often more power. Now that you understand the ifferences, you need to know how they work. MBC operate by opening a valve at a set pressure. the air flowing through creates a whoosh soun an EBCS operates like a solenoid, by opening and closing a valve really fast to acheive the target pressure. This rapid opening and closing is what causes the fluttering sound. THE Fluttering sound IS NOT BAD. You simply need to know how all these parts work, and what their function is so you can understand what is going on. hopefully that cleared something up, and you learned something today. personally i run an EBCS, because it allows better/more boost control. that fluttering sound is suppose to happen and its nothing bad, so dont freak out if all i cared about was "whoosh" vs "flutter" then i could get an MBC, but i care more about performance and the overall power and tuning capabilities of my car so i choose EBCS. |
10-11-2012, 09:24 AM | #23 | ||
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 332887
Join Date: Sep 2012
Chapter/Region:
Tri-State
Location: Orange County, NY
Vehicle:2012 WRX stage 2+ DGM (sedan) |
Quote:
Quote:
EDIT: This info will be useful for anyone reading this thread if they don't understand how boost controllers work, so thank you for teaching them |
||
10-11-2012, 09:35 AM | #24 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 4273
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: CT
Vehicle:2015 Taco & 2015 Legacy Ltd. |
+1. Back in the day people were adjusting their waste gate actuator arms on TD04's to try to get rid of flutter... Then people realized the fluttering sound was normal and was part of the system controlling boost. It was joked then that people would be loosening their waste gate arms to try to get flutter.
|
10-11-2012, 09:55 AM | #25 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 215212
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Co (Denver), SoCal (San Diego)
Vehicle:2005 AW STi 05OBPSTi&05CGMSTi (SOLD) |
Running a Dom 1.5xtr with 38mm ewg and grimmspeed ebcs. Flutter doesn't bother me
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|