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Old 02-12-2004, 07:52 AM   #1
Jon [in CT]
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Default Legacy 3.0R Spec B (6MT) Sedan Prototype to Debut at Geneva

According to http://www.carkeys.co.uk/news/2004_february/12/2034.asp:
Quote:
Subaru Super Legacy

(12 Feb 04)

Subaru will introduce a Spec B concept version of the highly regarded Legacy 3.0R saloon at next month’s Geneva Show. It’s described variously as "purely a prototype" and "a teaser", but if enough people start hammering on the doors, there’s no reason why it shouldn’t go into production.



That’s because all the modifications to the standard specification are available either from elsewhere in the Subaru parts bin or from outside suppliers.

The 241bhp flat-six engine is carried over from the showroom version, but while that car comes only with automatic transmission, the Spec B uses a six-speed manual gearbox transferred from the Impreza STi.

In standard form, the four-wheel drive Legacy is one of the finest-handling saloons on the market. The Spec B comes with larger 18" wheels and 215/45 R tyres, rally-style Bilstein suspension front and rear, and a torque-sensing rear differential

Subaru’s Geneva display will also feature the B9 Scrambler sports car and the R1e 2+2 "urban runabout", but we won’t be surprised if they rather fade into the background compared with the almost production-ready Spec B.
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Old 02-12-2004, 08:34 AM   #2
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only 241?
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Old 02-12-2004, 08:46 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by amdmaxx
only 241?
Yes, the Euro-spec version of the EZ30R is rated at 245 PS, which converts to 241 HP. It's similar to the horsepower relationship between the Euro-spec WRX and the US-spec. Their WRX is rated at a slightly lower peak horsepower than our WRX.
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Old 02-12-2004, 08:57 AM   #4
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Default Also here

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Old 02-12-2004, 09:17 AM   #5
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Default Re: Legacy 3.0R Spec B (6MT) Sedan Prototype to Debut at Geneva

Quote:
Originally posted by Jon [in CT]
According to http://www.carkeys.co.uk/news/2004_february/12/2034.asp:
Also in Jon's link, there is a UK road test of the current Legacy 3.0n. The *n* stands for *navigation* system. So, if and when we get a nav system, expect a *n* to be added to the name.

Bob
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Old 02-12-2004, 10:07 AM   #6
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Default This poses some interesting questions:

Assuming that this Legacy 3.0 Rn Spec-B does make production (right now it's still concept according to that link):

(1) Should it come to North America (I know, silly question)?

(2) If so, should the Legacy GT turbo receive the same upgrades (tranny, suspension, wheels)?

(3) If so, should the Legacy GT 5EAT remain with 17" wheels, since it is slightly less sporting, and will appeal to a non-manual, less sporting crowd?

(4) My guess is that these should be Legacy exclusives, meaning the Outback XT and Outback H-6 models should NOT receive these upgrades (except for the nav system). Agree or disagree?

(5) Should there be *n* versions of all of the above, as well as *non-n* versions?

Bob
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Old 02-12-2004, 10:38 AM   #7
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H6 + STi 6-speed = heavy car for a Spec B designation.
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Old 02-12-2004, 11:12 AM   #8
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It won't be the STi 6MT. Likely the new 'lightweight' 6MT as we've been told is in the pipe, but obviously not quite ready for the USDM debut.
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Old 02-12-2004, 11:45 AM   #9
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WOOHOO! Subaru finally figured out how to attach a manual tranny to the H6 engine!!! This is great news!
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Old 02-12-2004, 11:53 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by SUBE555
It won't be the STi 6MT.
From the press release at Subdriven: "... the display car will have the same six-speed manual gearbox as the Impreza STi."
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Old 02-12-2004, 12:08 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by coolbluelb
H6 + STi 6-speed = heavy car for a Spec B designation.
Isn't the H6 only about 90 to 100 lbs heavier
than the N/A 2.5? When you take the N/A 2.5
and add the Turbo, the intercooler and the
plumbing, is it about the same? Anyone?
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Old 02-12-2004, 12:56 PM   #12
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Actually I thought the EZ30 was only some 30, maybe 40 lbs more than an EJ25, though I could be wrong.

The STi 6MT is one big chunk of beef! I highly doubt the STi 6MT would make it to that car. How many times have these press releases bee wrong on what some might think are small details, but scrutinized heavily by the enthusiasts, us?


A bigger pic for ya'll.
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Old 02-12-2004, 12:57 PM   #13
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I could see the situation where the Impreza 6 speed is in the show car and a lightened version finds its way into a production Legacy. Like you said, maybe the new 6 isn't quite ready but they wanna show the car with a 6 in it at the show.
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Old 02-12-2004, 02:48 PM   #14
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Love the idea we *could* get a Spec B, especially as I'd argued long and hard that the parts were all there, just waiting to be bolted on (as even the article seems to confirm).

Very glad we'd get the firmer suspension, better wheel/tires and, of course, that lovely 6MT!

Still, for an *enthusiast's car* you'd think it'd be on the turbo, not the NA 6...maybe for EDM it's the H6 to compete with BMWs, etc., and here the USDM Spec B would get the Turbo (let's hope!!).

Too bad it still looks like the 3.0R, and not the JDM Spec B, but again...at least we can hope for a USDM twin of the JDM version's style & packaging...

Big Question

Cost: I'm betting ~$30k to $32,000...quite a profit over the JDM, but still below the Acura TL and other competitors.
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Old 02-12-2004, 03:46 PM   #15
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Default STi tranny

The STi tranny is heavy because it is beefy and strong, which is exactly what the STi needs. A "lighter" 6-speed most likely won't be as robust. It would most likely be far more cost-effective to use the STi tranny, than offer another completely different unit.

I say use the STi unit, and weight be damned.

Bob
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Old 02-12-2004, 03:58 PM   #16
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i dont see any need to build a completely different lighter 6 speed. 85 pounds isnt much.

i'd rather see the 6 speed in the 2.5xt myself.
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Old 02-12-2004, 04:20 PM   #17
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Default The Baja too

Quote:
Originally posted by Achilles38WRX
i dont see any need to build a completely different lighter 6 speed. 85 pounds isnt much.

i'd rather see the 6 speed in the 2.5xt myself.
The more models this tranny can be used in, the lower the per-unit-costs. So, STi, Legacy 3.0Rn, Forester XT, Outback XT, Baja and Baja turbo.

BTW, all '05 Nissan Frontier pickups with manual trannys, will be 6-speeds; so I say pass it on to all the Bajas too.

Bob

Last edited by rsholland; 02-12-2004 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 02-12-2004, 04:25 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by gumball
Isn't the H6 only about 90 to 100 lbs heavier
than the N/A 2.5? When you take the N/A 2.5
and add the Turbo, the intercooler and the
plumbing, is it about the same? Anyone?
Ya, an H6 is comparible weight wise to a turbo EJ 4 cyl
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Old 02-12-2004, 04:26 PM   #19
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Personally, ill take a H6 with a 6-speed in my car
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Old 02-12-2004, 05:02 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kostamojen
Ya, an H6 is comparible weight wise to a turbo EJ 4 cyl
To get a ballpark estimate, I compared curb weights of some 2004 Outback Wagons and some Foresters, all with automatic transmissions.

The 3.0 35th Anniv. Wagon weighs 3655 lbs and the Limited Wagon weighs 3575 lbs. That suggests the 3.0L engine weighs about 80 lbs more than the normally aspirated 2.5L.

The Forester XT weighs 3250 lbs and the Forester XS weighs 3140 lbs. That suggests the 2.5L turbo engine weighs about 110 lbs more than the normally aspirated 2.5L.

Conclusion: the EZ30D engine is about 30 lbs lighter than the EJ255. It's possible the new EZ30R is slightly heavier than the EZ30D, but I'm not too concerned about a 10-20 lbs difference between the new EZ30R and the EJ255.

I wonder how much the WRX STi 6MT transmission weighs, compared to the new 5EAT transmission used in the 2005 Legacy and Outback models?

Last edited by Jon [in CT]; 02-12-2004 at 05:07 PM.
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Old 02-12-2004, 06:18 PM   #21
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Default Re: STi tranny

Quote:
Originally posted by rsholland
The STi tranny is heavy because it is beefy and strong, which is exactly what the STi needs. A "lighter" 6-speed most likely won't be as robust. It would most likely be far more cost-effective to use the STi tranny, than offer another completely different unit.

I say use the STi unit, and weight be damned.

Bob
I really like the concept of a H6 B spec Legacy with Six-speed manual, I would like to see 18 inch 225 rims and tires, something somewhat more sporting than the wheels in the photo.

The question that I have, what is the weight difference between the 6 speed manual and the 5 speed auto trannies, that would seem to be more important than the weight differences between the two manual boxes?

I would think there the six speed manual would still likely be lighter than the sush box.

In any event this is good news and hopefully will expand the Legacy line into the more conservative sports sedan market. There are still a great many buyers that would perfer a NA H6 over a turbo H4 engine.
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Old 02-12-2004, 06:20 PM   #22
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Default Re: Re: STi tranny

Quote:
Originally posted by Alpha1
There are still a great many buyers that would perfer a NA H6 over a turbo H4 engine.
<Raises hand>.
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Old 02-12-2004, 06:36 PM   #23
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If they offered an EZ30 with a manual, at the very least I'd have to take a very close look. I'd have to really look at cams and whatever else could be thrown on to see if I could hit the 100hp/L barrier with decent torque in all-motor fassion.
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Old 02-12-2004, 06:41 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jon [in CT]
I wonder how much the WRX STi 6MT transmission weighs, compared to the new 5EAT transmission used in the 2005 Legacy and Outback models?
It would probably depend on if the 6MT was mated to the R180 and the heavier rear axles or not. Considering that the 4EAT is about 55 pounds heavier than the 5MT and assuming that the 5EAT is even heavier I bet the weights would be close.
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Old 02-12-2004, 11:58 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alpha1

I would think there the six speed manual would still likely be lighter than the sush box.

In any event this is good news and hopefully will expand the Legacy line into the more conservative sports sedan market. There are still a great many buyers that would perfer a NA H6 over a turbo H4 engine.

Yeah, but not those at altitude, or who simply prefer turbos.

If the OB gets all the engine combos, the Spec B would be best if it too offered the buyer a choice of H6 or H4T.

The STi 6MT would be ideal in either--it's robust, and it's in production.
Why bother making another?
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