Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday March 29, 2024
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Built Motor Discussion

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-28-2012, 12:46 PM   #1
Cocoa Beach Bum
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 17355
Join Date: Apr 2002
Default New Option for EJ Engines from King Engine Bearings

I see quite a few posts about engine bearing failures so I thought the article at http://www.autoserviceworld.com/news...es/1001890435/ might be of interest. According to the article:
Quote:
King's new bearings are specifically engineered to solve premature bearing failure caused by low oil pressure or oil starvation that has plagued the high output Subaru EJ series boxer engines (EJ15, EJ16, EJ18, EJ20, EJ22, EJ25).

"King conducted extensive research into the unique oiling circumstances of the Subaru EJ series engines," explained Ron Sledge, King's performance and technical manager. "What resulted is a completely re-engineered main bearing set that eliminates oil leakage and increases oil flow to number two and number three rod bearings."

To improve oil flow, oil slots on the King XPG bearings are replaced with oil holes for better oil distribution in the groove and more consistent oil flow. Fully grooved number three main bearings enable 360° oiling to number two and number three rod bearings. King XPG bearings feature a unique lug design that eliminates the conventional lug recess so no oil escapes and full oil pressure is maintained. In addition, narrowed bearing lengths help eliminate fillet ride on high-radius cranks.

With enhanced tri-metal copper lead construction with nickel barrier and SecureBond adhesion, King XPG bearings have a 20 percent higher load capacity and better resist surface fatigue.

King XPG Bearings are available for Subaru EJ series boxer engine applications, including rod bearings (CR4125XPG - 52mm journal) and main bearings (MB5382XPG - flange in #5 position). These new XPG parts are available in STDX (.001" extra clearance), STD, .026, 0.25 and 0.5.
Their website at http://www.kingbearings.com has a Technical Info section which provides a lot of info about engine bearings in general.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

Last edited by Cocoa Beach Bum; 11-28-2012 at 12:52 PM.
Cocoa Beach Bum is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 11-28-2012, 06:25 PM   #2
mechatricity
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 290592
Join Date: Aug 2011
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Charlotte, NC
Vehicle:
15 Outback,
15 WRX 6MT CWP

Default

Seems like more of an issue on the 2.0L motors- but even so i'm not sure it's necessarily the design of the bearing that causes the failure.
mechatricity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 08:09 PM   #3
i_c_the_light
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 88618
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Default

Pure marketing bull****.
i_c_the_light is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 11:08 PM   #4
drewvdw
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 255776
Join Date: Aug 2010
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Laramie, WY
Vehicle:
2010 LR WRX
MPS powered.

Default

I heard about King Bearings doing something like this 6 months ago or more...There was a thread about it and I think I saw it floating around recently...
drewvdw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 11:50 PM   #5
Flat 4 Motorsport
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 295846
Join Date: Sep 2011
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Crook County, Illinois
Vehicle:
WRX FP HTA GT3076R
Sexual Chocolate

Default

The crank is the issue, oil will always take the path of least resistance. The OEM EJ crank is not designed for high revs.

not the best of designs especially when you're trying to spin to 9k and make 400+WHP


It also depends on clearances, knock, ect.

the two rods being supplied by one main doesn't help

Last edited by Flat 4 Motorsport; 11-29-2012 at 12:36 AM.
Flat 4 Motorsport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 12:10 PM   #6
xdrian
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 104200
Join Date: Jan 2006
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Austin TX
Vehicle:
000 WHP BUGEYE
Street Proven Performance

Default

We have a set here that we are going to be using in our 800hp ej257 that revs to 8500rpm.
xdrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 01:33 AM   #7
Murphdog
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 75414
Join Date: Nov 2004
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Rock Springs,Wyoming
Vehicle:
2004 STi
Its the Blue one

Default

I run ACLs on mine and am doing a bigger build that will rev to 8500. Anyone have data on why these would outperform the ACLs.
Murphdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 10:22 AM   #8
3MI Racing
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 200987
Join Date: Jan 2009
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: VA
Default

I had spoken with Ron Sledge for a good deal of time at PRI last year. I was thoroughly unimpressed, especially after sitting in his seminar (where he spouted rules of thumb) however I did drop a load of issues that we have and why.
I also made some suggestions that I wanted to test for the EJ, including a full grove #3 main and trying a 3/4 or maybe even a 1/2 groove for the #1 and #5.

I guess he got someone to test it with!...or it's just marketing BS and it isn't tested yet

-Micah

P.S. IIRC Matt Ball pretty much gave him the same ear full that I did.
3MI Racing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2012, 09:27 AM   #9
GideonZ
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 339388
Join Date: Dec 2012
Default

Hi , I see some Questions about XPG bearings
THIS is the story about it:

We made research and found that Most of Bearing failure in Subaru EJ engines appear on CR #2 and #3.
We received few failed bearings for inspection and found similar symptoms of Oil starvation.
The question is why only CR#2 ,#3 and not CR #1 CR#4
Well, CR#1 get oil from MB#1, CR#4 get from MB#5, CR #2,#3 both get from MB #3
My conclusion was :the ability of single main (#3) to feed oil for 2 CR is limited

therefore, Oil In Feed from Block into MB#3
and
Oil Out Feed from MB#3 into CR#2,3 must improved.

In feed (to MB#3) can improved by adding more oil holes or changing oil to Slot
Out feed (to CR #2,3) can improved by changing oil grove to be folly 360 instead of partially 250 degrees.
explanation :In 250 the oil delivery from MB to CR are turned on-off-on-off while crank rotate ~66% on 33% off
In 360 degree it is 100% on

Oil Groove could not modify to be 360 without changing the inside geometry of the Locating Lug.

The oil will leak from oil Groove out trough the inside punched area of the Locating lug

So this is all about it

confused??
gideon
GideonZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2012, 09:32 AM   #10
mboulton
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 174433
Join Date: Mar 2008
Default

Is this a joke Gideon?

Okay I will bite....


so why 360 oiling at journals 1 and 5? iI understand the theoretical benefit of #3.

How about sharing some data that a million dollar corp should have prior to little ol me buying unproven ideas on a $150 bearing set going into $20k engine rebuild?
mboulton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2012, 09:38 AM   #11
mboulton
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 174433
Join Date: Mar 2008
Default

Why don't you start on official KING bearing thread so everything stays together?
mboulton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2012, 09:39 AM   #12
mboulton
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 174433
Join Date: Mar 2008
Default

yi..... i purchased a full set normal and oversized. My normal ones are your redesign (which I never asked for) and the oversized are the previous design. Makes it more difficult to swap bearings to get proper tolerances.

feel a bit cheated to be honest.
mboulton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 07:58 PM   #13
3MI Racing
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 200987
Join Date: Jan 2009
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: VA
Default

I see that Mel is going for the jugular
3MI Racing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 04:17 PM   #14
Crystal_Imprezav
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 84105
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: I'm a Newbie
Vehicle:
2005 Super Slow STi
CGM

Default

If some bearing company really wanted to listen and make some $$ they would make some oversized main bearings so one could align hone without decking the halves but what do I know
Crystal_Imprezav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 08:13 PM   #15
aboothman
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 127745
Join Date: Oct 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: CA
Vehicle:
06 WRX 30r 6 speed
99L EJ255 6 Speed

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post
If some bearing company really wanted to listen and make some $$ they would make some oversized main bearings so one could align hone without decking the halves but what do I know
Agreed!!
aboothman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2012, 07:25 PM   #16
KillerRabbit
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 184772
Join Date: Jul 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Conway, Arkansas
Vehicle:
2004 WRX
World Rally Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post
If some bearing company really wanted to listen and make some $$ they would make some oversized main bearings so one could align hone without decking the halves but what do I know
You get the cookie!
KillerRabbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 10:22 PM   #17
Turn in Concepts
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 93646
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
Many Track Records
Let us help you go fast!

Default

ok folks - I talked to the King guy at IMIS. I didn't beat around the bush at all. In fact, I was likely rather aggressively unfriendly.

Now, this is what I was told. Take it as you will.

1) The tang. They found that with the old stamped tang oil was getting behind the bearing though the cut and displacing the bearing into the crank. The new tang is upset as opposed to cut/stamped to eliminate the cut for oil to get into.
2) The feed holes #3 are now oval to keep from blocking the feed from the block.
3) the "trough" is now deeper to hold more oil
4) the holes for #5 are chamfered on the crank face side to hold more oil
Turn in Concepts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 04:27 PM   #18
Crystal_Imprezav
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 84105
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: I'm a Newbie
Vehicle:
2005 Super Slow STi
CGM

Default

My thoughts:

Didn't see anything chamfered on #5 from my recollection but I will double check.

The tang makes a bit of sense. The Mahle bearings did the same thing a long time ago.
http://gruppe-s.blogspot.com/2010/07...ver-mahle.html

With the expanded U holes and deeper grooves, it makes me want to run a bigger oil pump.
Crystal_Imprezav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 07:43 PM   #19
Matty_STi
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 333602
Join Date: Sep 2012
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Vehicle:
2012 STi
DGM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
ok folks - I talked to the King guy at IMIS. I didn't beat around the bush at all. In fact, I was likely rather aggressively unfriendly.

Now, this is what I was told. Take it as you will.

1) The tang. They found that with the old stamped tang oil was getting behind the bearing though the cut and displacing the bearing into the crank. The new tang is upset as opposed to cut/stamped to eliminate the cut for oil to get into.
2) The feed holes #3 are now oval to keep from blocking the feed from the block.
3) the "trough" is now deeper to hold more oil
4) the holes for #5 are chamfered on the crank face side to hold more oil
What's your take on this then? Many here would trust your opinion. Would you go with these or recommend we look elsewhere?


Matt
Matty_STi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 08:13 PM   #20
Turn in Concepts
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 93646
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
Many Track Records
Let us help you go fast!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty_STi View Post
What's your take on this then? Many here would trust your opinion. Would you go with these or recommend we look elsewhere?


Matt
Honestly. I'm not sure. I'm only repeating what I was told, but at the same time I'm not too interested in running them on a customer build just to see what happens. I too would need validation that the changes add up to better performance than what is currently out there.
Turn in Concepts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 09:00 PM   #21
GideonZ
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 339388
Join Date: Dec 2012
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
ok folks - I talked to the King guy at IMIS. I didn't beat around the bush at all. In fact, I was likely rather aggressively unfriendly.

Now, this is what I was told. Take it as you will.

1) The tang. They found that with the old stamped tang oil was getting behind the bearing though the cut and displacing the bearing into the crank. The new tang is upset as opposed to cut/stamped to eliminate the cut for oil to get into.
2) The feed holes #3 are now oval to keep from blocking the feed from the block.
3) the "trough" is now deeper to hold more oil
4) the holes for #5 are chamfered on the crank face side to hold more oil
Hey, please let me corect yuo

1) the Tang:
problem we found is in inside surface of the tang (inside of the bearing),
in the old Pahse1 engines, oil groove was 360 degs, the inside punched tang was very near to oil Groove, oil leaked from oil groove through tang and reduced oil pressure , to prevent oil leaks, Subaru engineers decided in phase2 engines to modified the oil groove , from 360 degs to be ~250 degs
that modification terminated the oil leak, but with price of oil starvation in CR 2,3.
we reverted the changed in the oil groove to be 360 again, and to prevent leaks we modified the lug.

Gideon Saslavsky
King Engine Bearings
GideonZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 09:18 PM   #22
Turn in Concepts
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 93646
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
Many Track Records
Let us help you go fast!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GideonZ View Post
Hey, please let me corect yuo

1) the Tang:
problem we found is in inside surface of the tang (inside of the bearing),
in the old Pahse1 engines, oil groove was 360 degs, the inside punched tang was very near to oil Groove, oil leaked from oil groove through tang and reduced oil pressure , to prevent oil leaks, Subaru engineers decided in phase2 engines to modified the oil groove , from 360 degs to be ~250 degs
that modification terminated the oil leak, but with price of oil starvation in CR 2,3.
we reverted the changed in the oil groove to be 360 again, and to prevent leaks we modified the lug.

Gideon Saslavsky
King Engine Bearings
Ah! Awesome! Thank you.
Turn in Concepts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 12:47 PM   #23
mboulton
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 174433
Join Date: Mar 2008
Default

I have been in contact with King Bearings, and they are sending me the bearings that I initially requested. It appears that they even listen to the no-name little guys plugging away in their garages.

mel
mboulton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 01:56 PM   #24
3MI Racing
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 200987
Join Date: Jan 2009
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: VA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post

With the expanded U holes and deeper grooves, it makes me want to run a bigger oil pump.

But those changes won't change the oil leakage during operation. It just ensures that it goes to the right place instead of out to the chamfer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
Honestly. I'm not sure. I'm only repeating what I was told, but at the same time I'm not too interested in running them on a customer build just to see what happens. I too would need validation that the changes add up to better performance than what is currently out there.
I think I'll probably toss a set in my personal destroker for my bugeye. Pistons have a due date of 12/27.

Last edited by 3MI Racing; 12-12-2012 at 02:02 PM. Reason: update on delivery of my pistons!
3MI Racing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2012, 02:02 PM   #25
mboulton
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 174433
Join Date: Mar 2008
Default

I am still not sold on the King theory. I would rather correct the oiling strategy with a proper crank. If I use these new XPG bearings, I will share any results good or bad.
mboulton is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2024 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission
Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.