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Old 09-21-2004, 01:15 PM   #1
wrx_snobordr
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Question CEL due to running lean due to cat back or removed silencer??

I had a cel pulled by subaru and they told me its the code for running lean. They said it might be a bad o2 sensor so he cleared it an if it comes back up just make an appointment. It poped back up today, the next day, so i called and asked what can be done. The service guy told me that there isnt much they can do about it because i have an after market exhaust, I HAVE A CAT BACK, to my knowledge this wont throw a cel. Hes claiming that it will change the air flow but i think thats crap, i was running with an open stock dp for 2 months with no problems and just recently put it back one so it could go in for service and it ran for a week with that on with no problems until it came out of there shop. Then he tried to claim its because i took out the silencer on the intake. I just laughed, i dont see any possible way that is going to throw a lean cel since its been running like that for 15,000 miles. I dont think all of a sudden the cars gonna go wait a second im missing a pointless piece of plastic tubing. i still have the stock air boack and the ram scoop forcing air into the wheel well so that shouldnt be a problem and its not ike i hve an after marlet intake where i had to move the maf sensor around. The part i dont get about this claim is that if the car wasnt getting enough air into the engine with would get a rich code correct? running lean means there isnt enough fuel, atleast to my limited engineknowledge, and neither the exhaust o2 sensor or the maf sensor would cause that. If anyone has any suggestions as to what could be causeing the problems please let me know. If i am wrong on my assumptions let me know too, gotta learn somehow right. Would you drive your car if it was throwing a lean code, this can cause detination which would be a huge mess trying to get them to cover that under warranty.

thanks Matt

ps: sorry this is a tough read im not clear headed right now
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Old 09-21-2004, 05:01 PM   #2
ride5000
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the following is a good test for intake pipe/turbo/ic leaks...

unplug maf sensor
remove accordian elbow between maf pipe and turbo inlet pipe
start car, let idle stabilize
with something properly shaped, completely obstruct airflow into turbo inlet pipe. get a good seal.
engine will slowly lose rpms and die
when it dies, listen carefully for sucking noises. you've got 5-10 seconds to try to determine where the leak is coming from.

if there are no big sucking noises, and the small accordian pipe looks ok, and the maf pipe looks ok, then you don't have an intake leak, plain and simple. turn your attention to the maf sensor itself. make sure it is clean. get some non-chlorinated brake cleaner and put the maf sensor in a ziplock bag along with some of the cleaner (it's tolulene and xylene btw, so if you have some of that around, just use that). seal the bag and shake it up good.

one of your biggest troubleshooting tools is to find someone else with the same car, and start swapping parts. getting at the front o2 sensor is a pain, but if the dealer continues to bust your balls and you can't go elsewhere, fix it yourself. make sure that it's working properly by swapping it with someone else for a day or so. if the problem follows your sensor, it's the sensor. if not, look elsewhere.

btw, the dealer is dead wrong.

hth
ken
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Old 09-21-2004, 05:38 PM   #3
wrx_snobordr
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Thanks ken, if the dealer keeps giving me trouble ill have to do as you reccomend. The thing that bothers me is how they instantly start making up excuses and make it sound like its your fault. It also seams like they try and talk down to you as if they know exactly what is wrong without even seeing the car. It normally comes down to "well you have alot of performance mods done to the car" to which i always reply no i have no engine mods besides a cat back and removed silencer that does nothing. Granted these werent the actual techs, when they actually agree to fix something they do a great job. Its just GETTING them to fix it. When i actually get a chance to talk to the tech guys they are knowledgable and dont try to give you any bs. They simply tell you what the problem is and how to fix it which is how it should be, no runaround.

I guess what i was trying to get out of this was some kind of hard evidence or reasoning other than what i have already said to them. I know that is difficult as im sure there are numerous things that could be causing the code to pop up. I just dont want to let them out of fixing it because i have a cat back exhaust and a removed slilencer.
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Old 09-21-2004, 05:42 PM   #4
kedrin
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well since u ran a open down pipe i think that would be the cause of the problem. Did it happen to rain while running a open down pipe? if so id put my money on that. probably a messed up sensor
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Old 09-21-2004, 05:44 PM   #5
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Ask them to prove to you that the cat back or silencer removal caused the O2 sensor to fail. If they continue call Subaru. Good luck.
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Old 09-21-2004, 05:58 PM   #6
wrx_snobordr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kedrin
well since u ran a open down pipe i think that would be the cause of the problem. Did it happen to rain while running a open down pipe? if so id put my money on that. probably a messed up sensor
It did rain while it was off. But the sensor is before the cat and i dont think any moisture is going to get all the way up there. It wasnt a total open down pipe i also had a mid pipe from my cat back. I just took off the axel back because the bolts snapped/fell out and it sounded like a huge exhaust leak. Plus, you would need to spray a hose up the exhaust to get it through the cat and not have it evaporate due to the heat.

matt
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Old 09-22-2004, 12:31 AM   #7
kedrin
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ah i thought that only the down pipe was connected. Dunno thats the only thing i could see that could cause it.
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Old 09-22-2004, 01:47 AM   #8
CyCoFooKee
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hmmm where are you from? Im from Kansas City, MO, and i talk to the parts people and mechanics down at the subaru dealership. They told me a catback would not void warrenty. If i were you, id keep bitching at you. Theres no way that would throw a CEL. Here in KC to, they dont really care. they didnt even noticed my aftermarket DP and didnt seem to care to bring it up. Well good luck on that man, i hope they stop being stupid and fix your problem
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Old 09-22-2004, 11:04 AM   #9
wrx_snobordr
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thanks for the info and help guys.

matt
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Old 12-03-2004, 05:06 PM   #10
TypeC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
unplug maf sensor
remove accordian elbow between maf pipe and turbo inlet pipe
start car, let idle stabilize
How the car going to idle when you unplugged the maf?
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Old 12-03-2004, 06:38 PM   #11
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I have both the silencer removed and a cat-back....

These are my only "engine" mods. I have never seen a CEL or even heard of anyone having the same problem.

Stock fuel maps a rich enough that there shouldnt be any problems with lack of fuel from these two minor mods. They probably dont even add any power...
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Old 12-03-2004, 06:48 PM   #12
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You might want to check to see if you have proper fuel pressure, and your vacuum lines to the fuel pressure regulator and so on are connected. If you fuel pump is going south and cannot maintain the base fuelpressure that would also give a too lean CEL. Also if you were right on the edge, if your now running oxygenated winter blend gas that could push things over the edge.

Larry
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Old 12-03-2004, 07:27 PM   #13
ride5000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TypeC
How the car going to idle when you unplugged the maf?


some kind of limp mode, must be a rudimentary speed/density algorhythm. i've never tried to drive it that way, but it idles pretty well, starts right up.

i first heard it as a trick to get you home/off the track when you rip an ic tube.

ken
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Old 12-03-2004, 07:29 PM   #14
ride5000
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actually, what am i saying... not speed/density.. it still has a perfectly working o2 sensor feedback loop and so is probably tweaking afr on the fly. iow, it doesn't need the maf at all.


perhaps.
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Old 12-03-2004, 11:22 PM   #15
bofh
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In cases like this, it is best to write a letter. A lot of BS gets said but BS is much less likely to get written. Start with describing the problem. Than say "The service writer said that this would not be covered under warranty because..." This gives them an easy out by saying the service writer made a mistake. Ask them if this is correct, and they are denying you service, and to explain why. If they put in writing that your service is being denied because of a non factory maintenance part (the air filter) and a not factory wear item post catalyst, you go in with a copy of there letter and a copy of magasin moss. Those two items are allowed by law. Phram and Midas can not void your warranty.
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