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Old 11-13-2005, 06:03 PM   #201
drewzter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turboICE
Then use the quote in full context.



That would be a misunderstanding of the design of the WG system. The default WG response is to open at its set spring rate (far lower than fuel cut), unless it is directed not to - the ECU does not open the WG it closes it by bleeding pressure through the solenoid. For what you are describing to occur would imply the ECU is opening the solenoid resulting in the WG closing when it shouldn't (i.e. it is opening the solenoid earlier or more often than it should). The decision by the ECU to open is based on MAP pressure and I don't see the ECU deciding to open the solenoid/close the wastegate due to increased air density as MAP reaches or exceeds the programmed boost.

It is very easy with the volume of gasses during high loads to exceed the cross sectional flow capacity of the wastegate while it is open.

If you say so. I understand the misinterpretation of the design. My bad. I did not realize that the solnoid keeps it closed while the spring keeps it open. But that was not my real argument. Your last sentence above is what I really don't understand. Why? Because I can stomp on throttle pedal in 5th and bring the boost up really high, then watch it fall as the WG opens. It can fall real fast with no problem at certain time, then not fall just before fuel cut. It seems to fall very rapidly whenever it needs to. Is the blow off valve helping reduce boost more than the WG? Just trying to understand the whole picture.
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Last edited by drewzter; 11-13-2005 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 11-13-2005, 06:51 PM   #202
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The wastegate stays closed until the wastegate actuator sees its rated boost pressure (10psi for example) through the reference boost line at which point the wastegate actuator opens it.

When the solenoid is activated it bleeds pressure from the reference boost line, by doing so it prevents the actuator from opening the wastegate despite actual boost being over its rated activiation psi.

If your wastegate isn't opening when it should it is a mechanical problem. Since our reference boost line has a restrictor in it, this type of system does two things: first it makes a relatively small solenoid bleeder more effective or IOW the bleeder doesn't have to be very large to work, second it will permit a short delay between intake boost and the boost seen by the actuator. So yes "boost surge" can be observed - but that isn't boost creep.

It is a pure fact not what I say that if the wastegate is not opening either when it should or as fast as you desire, it is mechanical not ECU or electrical related - the design of the system prevents it. (unless there is some possible electrical bug that keeps the solenoid open - though I believe the failsafe on the solenoid is to remain closed and would prevent that possibility - still couldn't be an electrical tuning issue)

You haven't stated whether this is a bone stock system that is causing you an issue or if it is modified. Bone stock I have never seen or heard of hitting fuel cut from boost surge, the designed tolerances are such that if that were to happen there is likely something not working as designed. If you have modified something, especially the exhaust then yes it is very feasible that the surge could hit fuel cut. But even in that case it is a mechanical issue - as stated previously electrical tuning will not address what you are dealing with.

The recirculating valve is not designed to control running boost pressures - it is designed to release pressure between the turbo and the throttle when the throttle plate is closed which results in vacuum behind the throttle where the recirculating valve reference hose comes from in order to prevent a surge back against the turbine. When the throttle is open a properly operating recirculating valve remains closed.

Last edited by turboICE; 11-13-2005 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 11-13-2005, 07:43 PM   #203
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there is no such thing as boost creep if you have the proper tuning make sure the car is tuned buy a tuner shop had a modified 05 wrx but totaled it getting a 06 sti
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Old 11-13-2005, 09:42 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turboICE
The wastegate stays closed until the wastegate actuator sees its rated boost pressure (10psi for example) through the reference boost line at which point the wastegate actuator opens it.

When the solenoid is activated it bleeds pressure from the reference boost line, by doing so it prevents the actuator from opening the wastegate despite actual boost being over its rated activiation psi.

If your wastegate isn't opening when it should it is a mechanical problem. Since our reference boost line has a restrictor in it, this type of system does two things: first it makes a relatively small solenoid bleeder more effective or IOW the bleeder doesn't have to be very large to work, second it will permit a short delay between intake boost and the boost seen by the actuator. So yes "boost surge" can be observed - but that isn't boost creep.

It is a pure fact not what I say that if the wastegate is not opening either when it should or as fast as you desire, it is mechanical not ECU or electrical related - the design of the system prevents it. (unless there is some possible electrical bug that keeps the solenoid open - though I believe the failsafe on the solenoid is to remain closed and would prevent that possibility - still couldn't be an electrical tuning issue)

You haven't stated whether this is a bone stock system that is causing you an issue or if it is modified. Bone stock I have never seen or heard of hitting fuel cut from boost surge, the designed tolerances are such that if that were to happen there is likely something not working as designed. If you have modified something, especially the exhaust then yes it is very feasible that the surge could hit fuel cut. But even in that case it is a mechanical issue - as stated previously electrical tuning will not address what you are dealing with.

The recirculating valve is not designed to control running boost pressures - it is designed to release pressure between the turbo and the throttle when the throttle plate is closed which results in vacuum behind the throttle where the recirculating valve reference hose comes from in order to prevent a surge back against the turbine. When the throttle is open a properly operating recirculating valve remains closed.

Much clearer now. Thank you very much. That is exactly what I needed to know. I said "I could be wrong". Now I understand how the thing is set up. Reverse of the way I was thinking it worked. Typical for me. Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me.

I am tuned. Ecutek. Turboback exhaust. Catless. Typhoon Intake. No trouble. Then I took the cat out AFTER the tune. Then I had overboost. If I understant you correctly, a RETUNE specifically to address this issue would be waste of time and money. I would be better off putting the cat back in or just watching how I drive. I do have gauge and I can try to stay under 20psi.

Last edited by drewzter; 11-13-2005 at 09:44 PM. Reason: grammer
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Old 11-13-2005, 10:52 PM   #205
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(Forget the original first part - I was thinking about it backwards - it is easy to do...)

Creep would be the boost going beyond what it was supposed to have been and staying there rather than leveling back down. Going to catless depending on the overal DP mouth design can contribute to this occurring. A tune for catted and then going catless changes all sorts of things - including reducing backpressure. Since you have an EcuTek rather than stock programming and I believe Vishnu tunes do alter the solenoid cycles and they may be too high in places to catch the boost surge - a retune may help you in this case with this new information. Your original posts led me to believe that you felt the OEM tune was surging your boost to high, which I maintain is not likely to happen.

The original post was in the context of going from OEM to a catless turboback and getting it tuned in that configuration. Going from an aftermarket tune which by design do not maintain the same types of tolerances and buffers as OEM provides a different set of circumstances - in the configuration it was tuned for it is likely fine especially a Vishnu tune, but the more free flowing exhaust very well could go beyond the significantly smaller tolerances in your tune and the solenoid duty cycles (time open which results in a closed wastegate) may be higher than would have been given if it had been tuned in your current catless configuration.

So I guess, going back to your first post - sure when starting out with a nonOEM tune meant for one configuration a situation could develop in a differing configuration that requires a tuning solution. The statement was in a differing context.

Last edited by turboICE; 11-13-2005 at 10:58 PM.
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Old 11-13-2005, 11:12 PM   #206
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I am not trying to be a hater...I just wanted to give you another perspective.

STis and boost creep with the factory turbo and a turbo-back exhaust system on an otherwise stock STi.

I would like to explain what we have seen with the factory boost control settings on the stock STis (2004-2005). The OEM ECU raises the Wastegate Duty Cycle (WGDC) % approximately 40% as RPM increases from 2400 to 5600 RPM. They do this in an effort to compensate for the restrictive exhaust system found on the stock vehicle. They are trying to maintain boost at higher RPM while running with the restrictive stock exhaust system. If a less restrictive exhaust system is installed on the vehicle, then the increasing WGDC will make boost raise as RPM raises.

This does not mean that mechanical boost creep does not exist, or that a proper wastegate porting job is not possible. I am just trying to point out that if you install a turbo-back exhaust system that flows well on an otherwise stock STi you will most like see boost creep through your boost gauge. Although, this perceived boost creep is due to electronic manipulation of the mechanical wastegate using an efficient turbo-back exhaust system, not due to the wastegate on the stock turbo being too small.

I would highly recommend you verify that you have mechanical boost creep before you port your wastegate. My experience has been that you only introduce problems when you port wastegates.

Think about it this way; a wastegate's function is to re-direct exhaust energy past the turbine wheel into the downpipe so that the turbo shaft speed decreases or remains constant. With porting a wastegate, you are trying and make that function potentially work better which means that your turbo is going to lower boost super fast when the wastegate door/valve opens or not run as much boost as it was engineered to.

The MORE boost you run the LESS wastegate you need/use. So unless you want to run less boost than stock and/or have un-tunable boost problems, then I would leave your wastegate, the area around it, the turbine housing, etc. alone. If you make your wastegate react quicker then boost will be very difficult to stabilize and reach peak #s at an earlier RPM. If you make the wastegate flow better, then the exhaust energy your turbo needs to make and maintain boost will have less opportunity to flow across the turbine wheel. Generally speaking, air/pressure/exhaust gases will always flow along the path of least resistance. Not bashing, just trying to give you a different perspective.

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Old 11-13-2005, 11:22 PM   #207
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Nothing wrong with that reply it is a good alternative view to me. Though with my 04 and a very free flowing RS*R turbo back (and a GT Spec header) I didn't see any boost creep through a range of temperatures on the OEM tune. Based on the Delta Dash logs I was taking back then I don't recall being overly concerned with the solenoid cycles being generated either. And the solenoid cycles were actually increased after my dyno tune and I still had no boost creep.

I continue to believe that it is the effect of downtube mouth design decreasing the efficiency with which the intended function of the wastegate operates. This is concluded through the result that certain toilet bowl sized DP mouths continue to experience boost creep no matter the amount of tuning done on them - porting with those exhausts were the only solution. At the time this thread was originally active, certain exhausts had no boost creep before or after tuning and certain exhausts had boost creep before and after tuning until they ported the WG.

Thus far I have seen no one come back and say they had boost creep before a tune and none afterward.
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Old 11-14-2005, 08:25 PM   #208
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Default Great Information

Thanks for the education guys. I really appreciate this. This is the best information on this subject I have read to date. So many posts are ego driven and therefore don't take the time to fully explain what it is we are talking about. I learned more from these past few posts than I have from several threads combined.

Since I have no other symptoms and it is not an everyday problem, I think I will bide my time and see how things go as we see lower outside temps and I adjust my drivng a bit. Then if I make any other changes or get the overboost more and more, I will go for the re-tune. I would not mind seeing what my numbers are anyway now with the cat off but that's not super important to me. Thanks again.

More education is always appreciated.

Last edited by drewzter; 02-26-2006 at 07:55 PM.
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Old 12-19-2005, 10:47 PM   #209
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very nice thread
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Old 02-25-2006, 08:07 PM   #210
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so then does this only happen on the 2.5l turbos? or could it happen to my 2.0l turbo 03 wrx?
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Old 03-19-2006, 11:25 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wgknestrick
Q) What causes boost creep?
A) Installing a turbo back exhaust whether aftermarket catted or not will in almost all cases cause boost creep to a certain extent.
im still not sure if i have boost creep or another problem...at part throttle boost goes beyond what it "needs" then back to where it should be. Usually 5psi or more too much! It doesnt do it at full throttle ever.

Heres my mods: 05 wrx
cobb stage2 map
invidia v2 dp
helix up
erz catback
samco y pipe hose

oh and this is why i ask!http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=964252
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Old 11-15-2006, 06:17 PM   #212
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Hey guys -- awesome information in this thread. I just read all 9 pages of posts and have learned a lot! I still have a final summary question though. As I know from reading these threads -- boost creep is a problem when you install a TBE system -- catted or not, but I also noticed a lot of this posting was in 2004 and 2005. So I guess I have three other questions as I think to the coming months with my 2007 STI. Sorry if these questions are really basic -- I have only owned a turbo'd vehicle for 2 weeks.

1. The only mod I have is the SPT intake. When I really open it up sometimes I get a stuttering or kinda broken sounding air breathing sound vs the normal SMOOTH air flow and turbo spool sound. This is not a boost creep issue or anything like that right? I am guessing this is just a normal issue as it is a very simple mod ??

2. My plan is to add the AP 2.0 and catted COBB turbo back exhaust after it comes out for the 2007. Therefore I guess after reading all of these threads if I just installed that and ran a packaged map -- then I would probably experience some boost creep? Also, people mention that after I do these types of mods you should bring it to be pro-tuned. Which would create a CUSTOM map right? Well then how come everyone talks so much about maps and the release of maps from COBB etc? Wouldn't you just get pro-tuned for that setup and then just leave it until you made a config change?

3. If I do this pro-tune. How do I know that the person tuning doesn't totally suck and is not just going to ruin my car or decrease the life of the vehicle dramatically? Granted reputable performance shops probably have a really talented tuner on staff -- but I might get the person who doesn't know what they are doing or maybe has never worked specifically with the STI before. Wouldn't it be 'safer' to just stick to a packaged COBB map that might be more 'conservative' or less HP according to the threads posted here, but might also increase the life of the engine and components?

Any insight anyone has would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
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Old 11-15-2006, 07:44 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus_sti_ltd View Post
Hey guys -- awesome information in this thread. I just read all 9 pages of posts and have learned a lot! I still have a final summary question though. As I know from reading these threads -- boost creep is a problem when you install a TBE system -- catted or not, but I also noticed a lot of this posting was in 2004 and 2005. So I guess I have three other questions as I think to the coming months with my 2007 STI. Sorry if these questions are really basic -- I have only owned a turbo'd vehicle for 2 weeks.

1. The only mod I have is the SPT intake. When I really open it up sometimes I get a stuttering or kinda broken sounding air breathing sound vs the normal SMOOTH air flow and turbo spool sound. This is not a boost creep issue or anything like that right? I am guessing this is just a normal issue as it is a very simple mod ??

2. My plan is to add the AP 2.0 and catted COBB turbo back exhaust after it comes out for the 2007. Therefore I guess after reading all of these threads if I just installed that and ran a packaged map -- then I would probably experience some boost creep? Also, people mention that after I do these types of mods you should bring it to be pro-tuned. Which would create a CUSTOM map right? Well then how come everyone talks so much about maps and the release of maps from COBB etc? Wouldn't you just get pro-tuned for that setup and then just leave it until you made a config change?

3. If I do this pro-tune. How do I know that the person tuning doesn't totally suck and is not just going to ruin my car or decrease the life of the vehicle dramatically? Granted reputable performance shops probably have a really talented tuner on staff -- but I might get the person who doesn't know what they are doing or maybe has never worked specifically with the STI before. Wouldn't it be 'safer' to just stick to a packaged COBB map that might be more 'conservative' or less HP according to the threads posted here, but might also increase the life of the engine and components?

Any insight anyone has would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
1. Sounds like wastegate flutter
2. I have Ecutek, so no experience with Cobb. Maps may be useful if you can load for purpose and switch maps at will.
3. I would definatly find a tuner with experience and even good references.
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Old 11-16-2006, 11:20 AM   #214
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i haven't crept since my protune...but that is a non issue technically
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Old 11-19-2006, 12:51 PM   #215
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I heard 90 percent of the time people don't actually get "true" boost creep, but only that htey are running stock ECU which doesn't regulate the flow to the new flow and 10 percent actually get the mechanical boost creep fixed by ported wastegate. I heard this from a respectable tuner, so any thoughts on that?
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Old 11-20-2006, 08:25 PM   #216
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OK, I will install my invidia divorced waste gate downpipe to my stock cat-back exhaust, will I seen boost creep? My car is an 05 STi, bone stock. I am in So.Cal area, so the weather is not that cold. I am so worry about the boost creep issues after finished reading this entire thread. Please let me know then. Thanks!
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Old 11-21-2006, 08:59 PM   #217
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I installed a catless turboback a couple of years ago,the first time I drove the car hard on a freeway it went to fuel cut and mil was on.Code was po244 wastegate solenoid duty cycle.That same day I took it to Dynocomp and got the Ecutek flash for it.It still hits 21psi on nights when its cool outside and you really hammer it.I have a ported 20g with a clipped turbine waiting to go on,I hope this stops but it wouldnt surprise me if I end up going ewg.
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Old 11-22-2006, 02:34 AM   #218
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It's driving me crazy - that's for sure

I have the stock WRX center section and an STi axle back on a Bosal DP/race pipe w/ VF-39 and AP OTS MAP.

3rd, 4th and 5th gear it can fuel cut.

The guage reads about 18PSI - but is steady before the cut.
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Old 12-08-2006, 08:19 AM   #219
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Sounds good, well when i put my full turboback on i went with a 4 inch downpipe since the guy who i bought it from off of his sti was getting rid of it all and i do hit boost creep like 3 or 4 times when at high rpms in 4th and 5th. One question i had and i request that you email me your answers since i have issues with finding old sections where i posted before, What if i was to go down to a 3 inch downpipe with less flow would that solve the problem. The car runs great until i hit that spike then my check engine light comes on and back off once i turn off the car for a while. Im planning on EM or possibly ECU, but if i can simply downsize from such a huge downpipe then would that solve it. The reason i ask is because a buddy of mine with a 04 though i have a 06 doesnt have that problem but he has a 3 inch not a 4. Just let me know, [email protected]
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Old 12-08-2006, 08:27 AM   #220
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Well I'm going for a tune later this month -

If it doesn't get resolved I'm just going to buy a new turbo
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Old 12-08-2006, 08:54 AM   #221
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Yea i need to do the same it pisses me off alot i just want it to run perfect with no lights coming on or anything as if stock. Its and expensive thing upgrading these vehicles. Im almost tempted to just go back to a regular exhaust system without the full one and not have to worry about it. Its like you mod one thing and have to do another to get it right and over and over. I researched a little bit and took some advice but it got me to where im at now causing me more $ just to get it to run right with the minor mods i've done. I dont see why subaru made the car with so many kinks in it when modding when its that kind of car. I had a 2001 old alero gls that i did mods to like crazy and never had a problem with any lights at all unless something wasnt done right and i would fix it and have it working again. Then i get a sports car twice as fast meant to be modded wink wink and get all kinds of issues! We'll see how it goes hopefully i get some info from somone who has done what i have done and fixed it simply rather than something thats going to break my pockets, if not then i will splurge 2 or 3 more times to get it right and im DONE! It's fast enough as is.
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Old 12-08-2006, 09:12 AM   #222
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Well - turbo motors are definitely more tricky than NA - and the power gains from the simple things I've done have completely transformed the car so I'm happy with that.

I think I'll try to get better at understanding the control systems and do some logging etc. I can handle the fact that I may hurt my motor and have no warranty but I'd of course like to avoid that or only make the mistake once.

Overall I think the car can be taken to around 300WHP and be pretty reliable - which makes for one darn quick groccery getter.
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Old 12-08-2006, 10:27 AM   #223
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Yea thats very true also i have to take that into account as well, Im planning on getting the insurance on my turbo thats like $1,000 through subaru here on tax return because its a lot of money but its well worth it if anything happens. I definately dont want to blow anything or void anything so im trying to keep it with the performance im looking for and without any lights. Like some people will just take out the bulbs for there lights but the problem still persist and when you do have something really wrong you will never know it so i want it to function like it should still. I was tempted to do that at first but thats not going to stop that boost spike so i'll have to do whatever it takes to get that right cause it just feels like im killing it even though some say it is causing no damage. I just feel raggedy riding such a nice car with a check engine light so it is on top priority to get it straight. I have heard that to before that you should be good up to 300whp even stock turbo long as you dont try to boost to much straining the turbo in time and eventually blowing it. Thats my goal im shooting for that and i have a list of mods i have planned to get that, one thing i need to do is what you are doing and thats going to get it tuned to all the mods that i have done first and then mod again.
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Old 12-08-2006, 04:43 PM   #224
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Hey, Anyone no ruffly what it runs for a ProTune?
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Old 12-08-2006, 05:03 PM   #225
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On dyno - mebbe $4-500

Road tune for $200ish?

That's the numbers I'm getting quoted
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