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Old 08-28-2011, 11:15 AM   #101
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I think the BMW 325i is the only other car(besides S2000/S2200) remotely similar to the RX-8
128i is a better comparison.
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Old 08-28-2011, 01:49 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Spenk View Post
128i is a better comparison.
What's the difference?

A 128i is basically a newer 325i. The RX-8 is still spitting out the same BHP as it did in '04 but now it has 200lbs more to lug around.

Except for MPG, I still think there is no comparison for the RX-8 in it's class.

Why do Sportcar mean you have to compromise Mazda? Why?
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Old 08-28-2011, 06:56 PM   #103
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1-series, like RX8, are 2+2 cars, so not small and light like a 2-seater for having the extra length, and extra interior seats.

And not practical enough to masquerade as 4-passenger daily drivers, the 1-series due to being too small for it's rear seat passengers, the RX8 for being more mechanically focused and particular for daily slogging-in-traffic duty.

I like a good 2+2, myself, but I'll freely admit that a 2-seater makes a true sports car, and a sedan makes for a more practical car.

I like a good 2+2 as a grand touring coupe, to throw coats or bags in the back seat, and be a little more relaxed and smooth. Sleeker and lower than a sedan, not as "buzzy", and noisy and hyperactive as a light sports car, both in terms of auditory noise, and vibration through the suspension.

Acceptable amounts of mass act as a damper to smooth things out, before it gets to the point of being too-massive, and dulling the response too much.

Rotaries with less latent low RPM torque are nice smooth engines for otherwise light-weight cars that don't have the mass to dampen harsh vibration anyway.

I think I'd pick a boxer piston engine for daily driving, and prefer rotary for racing and pure sports-car performance. RX8's premise is in limbo between the two. A practical body with the legs and heart of an athlete.

If it were sexier looking than it is, and I lived further south with less snow half the year, I would probably love an RX8... but for a daily slog-capable car with enough fun in reserve for the occaisions that opportunities arise, rain, shine, sleet, or snow... the SVX is a better fit for my climate, and doesn't mind handling stop and go traffic. If I were in a position to really want a Lotus elise/exige/esprit... that sort of car could use a rotary engine.

Last edited by HipToBeSquare; 08-28-2011 at 07:02 PM.
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Old 08-29-2011, 12:11 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
1-series, like RX8, are 2+2 cars, so not small and light like a 2-seater for having the extra length, and extra interior seats.

And not practical enough to masquerade as 4-passenger daily drivers, the 1-series due to being too small for it's rear seat passengers, the RX8 for being more mechanically focused and particular for daily slogging-in-traffic duty.

I like a good 2+2, myself, but I'll freely admit that a 2-seater makes a true sports car, and a sedan makes for a more practical car.

I like a good 2+2 as a grand touring coupe, to throw coats or bags in the back seat, and be a little more relaxed and smooth. Sleeker and lower than a sedan, not as "buzzy", and noisy and hyperactive as a light sports car, both in terms of auditory noise, and vibration through the suspension.

Acceptable amounts of mass act as a damper to smooth things out, before it gets to the point of being too-massive, and dulling the response too much.

Rotaries with less latent low RPM torque are nice smooth engines for otherwise light-weight cars that don't have the mass to dampen harsh vibration anyway.

I think I'd pick a boxer piston engine for daily driving, and prefer rotary for racing and pure sports-car performance. RX8's premise is in limbo between the two. A practical body with the legs and heart of an athlete.

If it were sexier looking than it is, and I lived further south with less snow half the year, I would probably love an RX8... but for a daily slog-capable car with enough fun in reserve for the occaisions that opportunities arise, rain, shine, sleet, or snow... the SVX is a better fit for my climate, and doesn't mind handling stop and go traffic. If I were in a position to really want a Lotus elise/exige/esprit... that sort of car could use a rotary engine.
You live in Iowa Hip, I don't buy the "I lives too far north " excuse. Besides the RX-8 is a balanced and more neutral RWD. A decent set of snow tires and it'll slog through the snow until it gets too thick(oh snap).

If you don't want the manual for DD the RX-8 offers a 6spd auto with manual mode every year except the initial year(I think).

Ice racing!

and

Will my RX-8 work in ALASKA!

RX-8 you will be missed .

Last edited by Allch Chcar; 08-29-2011 at 12:13 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old 08-29-2011, 12:15 PM   #105
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I think this comparison with the S2000 is technically very appropriate, but irrelevant to the future of the rotary. What I mean is, even if the rotary had the same power, torque, and fuel economy as the F20C, it still wouldn't have a viable future. We are comparing it to the form of piston engine that has become obsolete for the same reasons that will make the rotary obsolete.
Yes, the market for high strung engines isn't there anymore. Vehicles are getting heavier and high revving engines don't have the torque and fuel economy.

Quote:
Almost everyone is switching to DI turbo engines at this point. Next gen 3 series won't even have an NA I6 in the US market. And while that technology works well with piston engines at this point, we have no reason to believe that it will work equally well with the rotary, and it would be downright moronic to believe that part-time R&D by a small company like Mazda will bring the DI turbo technology for the rotary to the same level of maturity as that for the piston engines.
Rotary and piston engines have always shared the same basic type of fuel and emissions systems. A system found on a rotary can be found on a piston engine in some form. The "Same level of maturity" between rotary and piston I guess is a vague thing to pin down. Mazda has had direct injection rotary prototypes since the 80s and has had all sorts of different forced induction schemes on production rotary and piston engines.

I am puzzled as to why Mazda hasn't been pushing the downsized + turbo thing. Maybe they started on the 16X and nobody inside the company would fund them changing direction. The earliest 2 rotar engines were 1 liter engines (10A). 1 liter turbo rotary could probably achieve the same horsepower as the current Renesis with a lot more usable torque and better fuel economy. If they can keep the weight down it could compete in a straight line. It would probably drop the redline way down to about 6000-7000rpm though.

Quote:
At the end, we will never really know if it would've been possible to develop rotary technology to a point where most of the "inherent" issues would be solved. That's not how history panned out, and the technological gap between rotary and piston engines is only broadening. It is inevitable that this will eventually lead to the death of rotary. If not now, then maybe ten years from now. But barring a major shift in paradigm, rotary will be dead sooner or later.
I won't disagree with this, although it is a sad conclusion.
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Old 08-29-2011, 12:30 PM   #106
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Guys, they're not killing Rotary development. They're just ending the current Rotary based car's platform, the RX-8. Remember that 2012 means the new safety standards go into effect for the US, many cars will need to be redesigned.

Mazda has committed to continue Rotary development.
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Old 08-29-2011, 03:08 PM   #107
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You live in Iowa Hip, I don't buy the "I lives too far north " excuse. Besides the RX-8 is a balanced and more neutral RWD. A decent set of snow tires and it'll slog through the snow until it gets too thick
Driving in winter conditions, RWD or AWD, is a slow process, not an occasion for break-neck speed, or "throwing it through the corners" as others have mentioned.

Having to rev up a rotary to get a result is counter to driving smoothly and slowly on a slick surface. It can be done, but that doesn't make it ideal. Some of us want more than merely possible.

You can buy what you want. I said it wasn't something I would want as a daily driver in my climate, which is MY preference, which I still keep.

I have a Miata, and snow tires for it. I have slogged it through 8 winters, before getting another AWD car, for winter duty, and hibernating the Miata. Don't assume that I don't know what that entails.

I would argue that Iowa and other similar latitudes in the interior of the country are actually more treacherous than colder climates.

Once it gets cold further north, it stays cold. No significant melting. Iowa gets ICE, both in forms of precipitation, and ground-cover snow re-freezing after thawing during the day, and snow melt as water runs that re-freeze into black ice later into the afternoon and evening when the sun isn't overhead. Further south, the weather doesn't do that on a daily basis. Further north, it doesn't thaw, and stays as snow-pack. Snow pack is easier to drive on that variable thaw-freeze cycles.

We may not get 50 feet of snow, that doesn't mean it is a cake walk to drive on Iowa roads in the winter, or any region that gets variable conditions on a daily basis.

I'll keep trusting torquier boxer engines, and AWD for fast or slow, steady winter duty, which is necessary for my daily-driven vehicles. rotary 2WD is fun, but belongs more on dry pavement, or crazy people doing crazy things that aren't covered by insurance, like ice racing.
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Old 08-29-2011, 03:16 PM   #108
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The RX-8's power delivery is very.. very smooth. Revs are just a number.. one that most drivers get wayy to hung up on.
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Old 08-29-2011, 03:20 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
Driving in winter conditions, RWD or AWD, is a slow process, not an occasion for break-neck speed, or "throwing it through the corners" as others have mentioned.

Having to rev up a rotary to get a result is counter to driving smoothly and slowly on a slick surface. It can be done, but that doesn't make it ideal. Some of us want more than merely possible.

You can buy what you want. I said it wasn't something I would want as a daily driver in my climate, which is MY preference, which I still keep.

I have a Miata, and snow tires for it. I have slogged it through 8 winters, before getting another AWD car, for winter duty, and hibernating the Miata. Don't assume that I don't know what that entails.

I would argue that Iowa and other similar latitudes in the interior of the country are actually more treacherous than colder climates.

Once it gets cold further north, it stays cold. No significant melting. Iowa gets ICE, both in forms of precipitation, and ground-cover snow re-freezing after thawing during the day, and snow melt as water runs that re-freeze into black ice later into the afternoon and evening when the sun isn't overhead. Further south, the weather doesn't do that on a daily basis. Further north, it doesn't thaw, and stays as snow-pack. Snow pack is easier to drive on that variable thaw-freeze cycles.

We may not get 50 feet of snow, that doesn't mean it is a cake walk to drive on Iowa roads in the winter, or any region that gets variable conditions on a daily basis.

I'll keep trusting torquier boxer engines, and AWD for fast or slow, steady winter duty, which is necessary for my daily-driven vehicles. rotary 2WD is fun, but belongs more on dry pavement, or crazy people doing crazy things that aren't covered by insurance, like ice racing.
(+1 to just about everything this guy said -- cars that need to be strung out to stratospheric RPMs to get decent power out of them are lowsy winter-mobiles.)

I am really surprised that the RX-8 made it as long as it did. It's overpriced for the performance it delivers. The chassis was good from what I could tell from riding in a few of them, but totally gutless for being a purpose built sports car.

Its demise **may** mean a few more sales of Scion/Subie coupe. But its demise may also mean bad news for upcoming coupe as maybe... Just maybe, there is no market for RWD sports coupe that hasn't any power to the wheels.

Personally, I think it spells bad news for the Scion/Subie coupe as the cancellation of the RX-8 gives a good barametric reading of the market and what people are buying and not buying.
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Old 08-29-2011, 03:29 PM   #110
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I didn't read any of the reply's. My wife and I were at a Volvo dealer today and they were appraising a RX-8 that was smoking oil pretty bad.
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Old 08-29-2011, 03:31 PM   #111
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True, but the market for reasonably priced rwd coupes should stay solid imo. People that would have bought something more powerful as a weekend toy might downgrade because of the economy, and people south of VA will be more likely to buy one as a daily. The awd platform in general doesn't seem as popular for those states

Edit: @scramjett, someone snuck a post in in between
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Old 08-29-2011, 03:44 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
blah blah blah
Classic Hip. Do you happen to get Epic Ice storms like Kentucky?

-1

And scramjett.
-1 for suggesting that the RX-8 is underpowered and peaky. Compared to what?
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Old 08-29-2011, 03:47 PM   #113
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"peaky" is a very nebulous word. The Rx-8 has a relatively flat torque curve even though the actual numbers are pretty low.
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Old 08-29-2011, 03:51 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by arghx7 View Post
"peaky" is a very nebulous word. The Rx-8 has a relatively flat torque curve even though the actual numbers are pretty low.
Nebulous, I think I'll hold onto that word for today

And wouldn't peaky usually mean a small torque band ala Hondas' or Subarus' turbo cars?

Last edited by Allch Chcar; 08-29-2011 at 03:52 PM. Reason: spelling/grammar
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Old 08-29-2011, 03:53 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by scramjett View Post
The chassis was good from what I could tell from riding in a few of them, but totally gutless for being a purpose built sports car.
I wouldn't quite call the 13b gutless but a turbo model would be nice but even more $$$. The chassis isn't just good its superb try driving one fast the great balance combined with a nice mech LSD makes for
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Old 08-29-2011, 04:00 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by arghx7 View Post
"peaky" is a very nebulous word. The Rx-8 has a relatively flat torque curve even though the actual numbers are pretty low.
Yup. 2nd and 3rd gears in the RX-8 were wonderful and usable across a wide rev range. The car really did work well on the street and at autocrosses in that regard: easy to balance, and easy to modify the balance with no turbo lag and predictable (yes low torque) output.
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Old 08-29-2011, 04:03 PM   #117
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just looked on craigslist and there are many rx8s for less than 10k . I didnt know they were That cheap. Now when does that ls swap kit become available? Maybe just pick up an ls 9 for good measure! 25k motor + 10 k car would be pretty fun. Yes I am ignoring the other 10k and year required to sort everything out....
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Old 08-29-2011, 04:05 PM   #118
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And wouldn't peaky usually mean a small torque band ala Hondas' or Subarus' turbo cars?
Serious question: would you define the torque curve below as peaky? I'm talking about the "high power" engine, the one that came on all the 6 speed manual equipped Rx-8's.

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Old 08-29-2011, 04:20 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by arghx7 View Post
Serious question: would you define the torque curve below as peaky? I'm talking about the "high power" engine, the one that came on all the 6 speed manual equipped Rx-8's.

No, it appears that 85-90% of the peak torque is available throughout the rev range, which is 3k-8k RPMs. It gets even flatter from 6k to peak power.
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Old 08-29-2011, 04:22 PM   #120
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I wouldn't quite call the 13b gutless but a turbo model would be nice but even more $$$. The chassis isn't just good its superb try driving one fast the great balance combined with a nice mech LSD makes for
By "gutless" I mean the car doesn't exactly pull off the line from a dig. Cruising down I-96 at 110mph was quite cool to experience... But I'd actually driven a previous gen turbo RX when I worked at a stealership in the 90s, and that was awesome. Its what got me into turbo cars in the first place after being turned off by Fuego in the 80s. Call me crazy, but I like torque in my "sports" cars, hence I'm in a WRX that dynoed around 300lb-ft (yeah its not a sports car, I know).

Ok, gutless may be a bit strong, seeing as how I just got back from vacation and me and my wife were tooling around in a Chevy Aveo (the worst car I've ever driven!!!) that would meet the Webster's dictionary definition of "gutless".

But for the money of the Rx-8 I would have expected something with some torque to the wheels. The transition from the RX-7 to the RX-8 is just as much of a blunder as Ford rolling out the Mustang II after the Mach 1, or better yet, Highlander II after the original Highlander.
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Old 08-29-2011, 04:25 PM   #121
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Cruising down I-96 at 110mph was quite cool to experience
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Old 08-29-2011, 04:27 PM   #122
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But for the money of the Rx-8 I would have expected something with some torque to the wheels.
Funny, that's what I think the same thing about the outgoing M5. In both cases I think the issue is the usable-torque-to-weight ratio. If the Rx-8 weighed as much as the current gen Mx-5 it wouldn't be a big deal. Heavier cars need more torque to be fun.
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Old 08-29-2011, 04:43 PM   #123
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Rotary is opposite of peaky that contributes to its overall feeling of "not that fast". Its peaky in the conotation that power isnt really made until high RPM. strictly speaking the torque is pretty flat which means the power is linear...i.e. not peaky.

Peaky powerplants often feel faster than they are. My o4 sti had A nice mountain of torque that came on only for the midrage and felt really fast when "punched" at 3krpm.

That is a peaky powerband even though power is made relatively low in the rev range.
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Old 08-29-2011, 07:23 PM   #124
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The RX-8's power delivery is very.. very smooth. Revs are just a number.. one that most drivers get wayy to hung up on.
It revs smoothly, that is true. No dispute.

But will the car pull itself smoothly from a standing start to 10-15 miles per hour, without jerking, and without having to overshoot 10-15mph, by revving above ~2750 rpms? (and the fewer revs above idle required to ease into forward motion, the better.)

That is common driving technique on slick roads. Even my boxer turbo doesn't do it as well as my H6 does, because the boxer turbo has less compression, and fewer cylinders for torque at idle.

On a slick road, having to give the engine more throttle opening is all that much more of a risk to break traction. Once you break traction on a slick surface, you have to start all over again, and possibly re-gain control of your car's yaw rate first.

I love revs as much as the next guy. I love how smooth my H6 spins... but there are occasions in the slick, where you want low RPM torque, rather than high RPM power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allch Chcar View Post
Classic Hip. Do you happen to get Epic Ice storms like Kentucky?

-1
Yes. We do get ice storms. Last winter, we got ice storms or significant snow storms, a few of them serious blizzards, every 10-14 days from thanksgiving through April. We get ice and sleet as minor precipitation quite often.

Plus we had well over 3 feet of ground-cover snow from mid december through the end of February, which melted, froze, thawed, re-froze, and re-accumulated with new snow on top of the re-freeze, usually in significant wind-blown drifts over millions of square miles of flat land with few trees to act as wind-breaks.

The further south, the more rain, and occasionally ice. The further north, the less ice, and more snow volume. I see a fair amount of BOTH, interchangeably... and sometimes within the space of a day.

I have gone to work on perfectly dry and clean pavement, only to come home through zero-visibility, with high winds blowing a sleet/snow mix that has covered the road surface in a slippery mess, in less than a half-hour after it started. Driving at no more than 30mph, or down to a crawl, depending on visibility, with 60mph cross winds on a slick road is no place to wonder if you'll have enough traction to keep you pointed in the same direction as the barely visible plow tracks that are rapidly being re-filled with snow.

Winter driving is serious stuff. But Kentucky is further south, and probably doesn't get as much of what I just described, except maybe in the mountain areas at higher elevations.

Trying to make a RWD sports/sporty car work as a serious winter car is taking a risk. Maybe not a sure-fire fail, but a certainly a higher likelihood of trouble. You can if you want, but I wouldn't go chastising others for taking their equipment choices more seriously.

I'll keep my sports car, and use it in the proper weather conditions in which the performance edge can be utilized. I would love to have a proper single-focus rotary-powered sports car for nice days.

But I'll use the more competent AWD low-RPM-capable equipment when the going gets tougher. k-thnx.
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Old 08-29-2011, 07:25 PM   #125
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I can't fathom how you can drive an automatic when you're so picky about details.
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