Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday September 18, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Custom Fabrication, Welding & Tools

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-20-2014, 04:04 PM   #1
isotopesope
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 265783
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: colorado springs
Vehicle:
2008 wrx

Default total shot in the dark: anyone do any CNC text engraving?

well, here i am throwing this out there to NABISCO, a bit out of desperation. haven't found a lot of additional info i want on the subject from my more appropriate channels... total shot in the dark, but this place of full of smarties, so maybe?

sooo, does anyone have any CNC text engraving experience they would care to share? most specifically, what material are you cutting, how deep, and what brand of tools are you using and what software?

LONG WINDED EXPLANATION:

i am working on directly engraving text and logotypes into our forging dies, rather than EDM sinking them in.

using a 45 deg included 0.015" tipped tool, i am trying to engrave .030" to .040" deep letters into Finkl FX1/Temper 1 die mold steel. it's about 45 HRC, but i will hopefully also be engraving into a harder 55-60HRC die steel as well. (yeah right)

.010" depth of cut, 3 degree ramping engagement with a .010" lift retract, 6k RPM, 3 IPM. (.0005 FPT)

had the best luck with 2L tools so far, plus their support is great. they've really helped get me as far as i have, but we're still a bit stumped and having to experiment.

once my new 2L cutters arrive, i am going to try slowing my ramp engage to 50% of the cut speed next to see if the relief edge still chips off, as per their suggestion.

Siemens NX 8.5.3 for CAD/CAM.

my main issue is that i am consistently breaking off a little sliver from the relief edge of the cutter. not sure if this is an engagement issue causing that? or if my speeds and feeds are causing a rubbing issue. pretty weird.

all the magazines tell us to run as fast as possible and even use a speeder, but 2L really suggested 6k, which is working waaaaay better. i think machining magazines are just giant commercials written by marketing guys telling us we all NEED that $400K CNC.

i am also wondering if a spindle or tool holder balance issue is at play?

Haas VM3 w/ a 12K RPM spindle, 40 taper Command balanced collet chuck tool holder, Stevenson collet. it's no Makino, but does a great job sinking our forging cavities. granted our 2013 cuts a tiny bit better than our 2006, which i am testing with. but save the worst for first!
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
isotopesope is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2014, 03:31 PM   #2
PARANOID56
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 22035
Join Date: Jul 2002
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Diego, CA
Vehicle:
2003 Brocoma DCab
71 FJ40, 13 DRZ400SM

Default

here you go.
get this

or this
PARANOID56 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2014, 03:42 PM   #3
isotopesope
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 265783
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: colorado springs
Vehicle:
2008 wrx

Default

hahahahaha perfect. i'd love to see a 24"x28"x10" 2,000# die block sitting on that cutsie lil' guy. i think our chips are bigger.
isotopesope is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2014, 02:39 AM   #4
Bigrederic
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 208971
Join Date: Apr 2009
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: North Bend OR.
Vehicle:
2003 WRX sedan

Default

There is a guy I would recommend to call .... Lance Humbert @ JGS Precision turbo ....
Bigrederic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2014, 10:58 AM   #5
isotopesope
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 265783
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: colorado springs
Vehicle:
2008 wrx

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigrederic View Post
There is a guy I would recommend to call .... Lance Humbert @ JGS Precision turbo ....
thanks for the contact suggestion.

got some new cutters in yesterday, so am anxious to try my new settings to see if my tool life is any better. probably next week...

i narrowed one problem down to the A of USA, which is where i need to cut .04" deep... according to everyone i talked with, most people are only engraving .005 or .01, and not in hard ass steel. ultimately, i think i may need to use more than one new tool per die half. bummer.

At first, i programmed the - to cut first, then cut the /\. the tip would typically break off about .01 to .015 during USA... i'm thinking the back and forth ramping in there was causing extra stress at the ends of the path, since the cutter was much more engaged in the material there... so i have reversed that.

just for essses and gee's:
test cutting action shot


come in, come in. lupe to cell phone...


weird sliver that is coming off of the non cutting "relief" side of the cutter:
isotopesope is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2014, 01:18 PM   #6
tom@kartboy
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 67
Join Date: Jul 1999
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Diego, CA
Vehicle:
1999 Outlasting
the competition.

Default

tom@kartboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2014, 01:18 PM   #7
isotopesope
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 265783
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: colorado springs
Vehicle:
2008 wrx

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom@kartboy View Post
thanks Tom! i have... i used their AlTiN coated 2 flute .125" shank .010" flat, both 30* and 60* degree included angles... the tip was gone from either pretty quick, especially the 30*.

i also tried their 12 Fl burr, #58130. this was the first tool i tried. worked pretty alright, but might revisit it with my better programming approaches.

i typically like Harvey tools. i use a few of their specialty undercut ball cutters for some trim tooling work. for cavity sinking, i mainly use Millstar though.

so far for my engraving endeavors, everything from www.2Linc.com has had the best performance. super easy to get customized tools too.
isotopesope is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2014, 07:44 PM   #8
jvangelder
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 358395
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: NH
Vehicle:
05 STI

Default

I stopped using single flute engravers a year ago and use 3flute altin coated 5/32 ballmills for everything. Alu, 303/304 ss, annealed and prehard 4140 etc. I have a job running now engraving a whole sentence of post op info into 303stainless at 4500rpm and i belive 35ipm plung and feed at 0.003deep

Do you need the depth for the die or just to get the text width. Even a mold and die tapered ballmill will work much, much better than the single point engravers
jvangelder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2014, 12:59 PM   #9
isotopesope
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 265783
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: colorado springs
Vehicle:
2008 wrx

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvangelder View Post
I stopped using single flute engravers a year ago and use 3flute altin coated 5/32 ballmills for everything. Alu, 303/304 ss, annealed and prehard 4140 etc. I have a job running now engraving a whole sentence of post op info into 303stainless at 4500rpm and i belive 35ipm plung and feed at 0.003deep

Do you need the depth for the die or just to get the text width. Even a mold and die tapered ballmill will work much, much better than the single point engravers
thanks for your feedback! what do you make?

your feed and speed is interesting to me. makes me want to try a bit faster feed. i'm using 6K RPM, 3 IPM, as per 2L's suggestion. this is using a .0005" feed per tooth. the sliver coming off of the relief edge makes me think the chip could be too thin, and the cutter is rubbing too much, so a faster feed could help that... perhaps i'll try upping my FPT/IPM at the 6K RPM.

what is the final depth for your lettering? do you use coolant or air? i didn't mention i am only using air for cooling.

unfortunately, i need to control both depth and width, and create a drafted letter. the USA is the challenging part. once the forging is final finished, a surface they grind will also take .01" off the top of the letters, making it more visible. the USA letter tops will only be .01" away from that pre-ground surface and then they grind about .02"-.027" off, thus making the letter fatter the more they grind. the rest of the lettering will only be raised lettering with no final finishing, so less critical, though they are quite picky about their logotype, in general.

the hilarious part is that in this modern world, marketing thinks they can dictate everything in manufacturing. they were adamant the lettering had to have a 22* included angle. hahahahaha yeah right. except custom, no one even makes such a stupid cutter. the 30* included i tried broke off instantly. aside from the fact that such a skinny low draft letter would be a nightmare to forge, not even considering scale buildup.

plunging still seems like a bad idea to me with this steel type, but hell, maybe the side load of ramping when the tool is barely engaged is bad too. the die steel is a good deal harder and tougher than 4140PH and i do all my cavity sinking with ramped engages, hence me wanting to ramp into the lettering.

we use the T1 die material from Finkl.
http://www.finkl.com/downloads/pdf/fx.pdf

when i have open time on the mill, i am going to try these again, but with their recommended feeds and speeds:
http://www.2linc.com/engraving_tools_tough_tip.htm

they worked pretty alright before, but that was when i was using 11k to 12k rpm. stoked to try these fresh ones i have.

you're engraving with a .156" BM? or is that the shank size? my solid carbide ball mills range from .250" to .062"... if i roughed it out with a .062, i could only use it for a maximum of .008" DOC. any deeper, and the ball would violate the 45* included walls i am trying to achieve.

if i went up to a 60* included, i would worry the USA would get to fat at the .04" depth, but i would be able to take .022" with the .062"... not considering any possible tool deflection.
isotopesope is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2014, 05:12 PM   #10
jvangelder
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 358395
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: NH
Vehicle:
05 STI

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by isotopesope View Post
thanks for your feedback! what do you make?
I work in a Jobshop. I make tools and fixturing for automotive, piles of firearms. medical, use to do defense etc etc

Quote:
your feed and speed is interesting to me. makes me want to try a bit faster feed. i'm using 6K RPM, 3 IPM, as per 2L's suggestion. this is using a .0005" feed per tooth. the sliver coming off of the relief edge makes me think the chip could be too thin, and the cutter is rubbing too much, so a faster feed could help that... perhaps i'll try upping my FPT/IPM at the 6K RPM.


what is the final depth for your lettering? do you use coolant or air? i didn't mention i am only using air for cooling.
Usualy 0.003-0.005 total depth unless otherwise specified. We do it for parts marking, notes etc. 99.9% of the time we use coolant, primairly because we are at capacity with our compressors, and air blasts liight up the floor with low pressure alarms

Quote:
unfortunately, i need to control both depth and width, and create a drafted letter. the USA is the challenging part. once the forging is final finished, a surface they grind will also take .01" off the top of the letters, making it more visible. the USA letter tops will only be .01" away from that pre-ground surface and then they grind about .02"-.027" off, thus making the letter fatter the more they grind. the rest of the lettering will only be raised lettering with no final finishing, so less critical, though they are quite picky about their logotype, in general.

the hilarious part is that in this modern world, marketing thinks they can dictate everything in manufacturing. they were adamant the lettering had to have a 22* included angle. hahahahaha yeah right. except custom, no one even makes such a stupid cutter. the 30* included i tried broke off instantly. aside from the fact that such a skinny low draft letter would be a nightmare to forge, not even considering scale buildup.

plunging still seems like a bad idea to me with this steel type, but hell, maybe the side load of ramping when the tool is barely engaged is bad too. the die steel is a good deal harder and tougher than 4140PH and i do all my cavity sinking with ramped engages, hence me wanting to ramp into the lettering.

we use the T1 die material from Finkl.
http://www.finkl.com/downloads/pdf/fx.pdf

when i have open time on the mill, i am going to try these again, but with their recommended feeds and speeds:
http://www.2linc.com/engraving_tools_tough_tip.htm

they worked pretty alright before, but that was when i was using 11k to 12k rpm. stoked to try these fresh ones i have.

you're engraving with a .156" BM? or is that the shank size? my solid carbide ball mills range from .250" to .062"... if i roughed it out with a .062, i could only use it for a maximum of .008" DOC. any deeper, and the ball would violate the 45* included walls i am trying to achieve.
Yeah a .156ball mill, its got about .2loc then it tapers to .1875. Even roughing your engraving with the .062, or an .050 which you can get from harvy would work better imho than the single point engraves. I honestly dont miss using them at all

-Jacob
jvangelder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2014, 10:58 AM   #11
isotopesope
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 265783
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: colorado springs
Vehicle:
2008 wrx

Default

thanks jacob.

primarily we just make forging dies and tooling for the local forge here. we also service the forging hammer parts as well. some of that **** that can weigh +5K#.

wow, i am gathering it is not a typical thing for people to want to engrave as deep as i am attempting... the tech support at 2L certainly thought so.

i did get two varieties of those "tough tip" tools... one with a .02 flat and one with .015 flat. the .02 tip can go within .008 of the final depth, without violating the wall, so i am going to try roughing with the .02 flat, staying .01 above, then final finish the last .01 with the .015 tip. we'll see.

we have a monster rotary screw compressor with a 100 gallon tank, so we've got plenty of air for all of our machines, thankfully. i might try using coolant though. ugh, i just hate that crap. we RARELY use it. we only have one old CNC charged at the moment. We primarily use it as a drilling and tapping center.

if this is all too much of a hassle, i'll have to go back to EDMing them in. just trying to avoid the additional setup and an attended operation.

thanks again for your feedback.
isotopesope is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2014, 12:59 PM   #12
jvangelder
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 358395
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: NH
Vehicle:
05 STI

Default

This is a wicked long shot, but do you work for Richardson?
jvangelder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2014, 01:39 PM   #13
isotopesope
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 265783
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: colorado springs
Vehicle:
2008 wrx

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvangelder View Post
This is a wicked long shot, but do you work for Richardson?
no, it's my family business. my father and grandfather started this company about 31 years ago. i've been here for over 10 years now.

www.cnccorp.net

the intro paragraph is jam packed with key words, so it reads a bit weird, if you ask me... but we're not as much trying to generate new business with the site as much as just have a web representation.

we primarily service Western Forge, here in Colorado Springs. we have done work for a few other forges around the country though. we make forge dies for Craftsman, Ridgid, SK, Armstrong, Proto...
isotopesope is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2014, 08:37 PM   #14
Grim82105
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 393379
Join Date: Jun 2014
Vehicle:
2006 Impreza
Blue and Carbon Fiber

Default Die

Are you mostly making stamping dies or a mold (plastic injection). Have you considered possibly laser etching or would that not be deep enough?
Grim82105 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2014, 08:41 AM   #15
isotopesope
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 265783
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: colorado springs
Vehicle:
2008 wrx

Default

Yeah, we only produce forging dies and tooling, as well as service forging drop hammer parts. Plastic injection work is intimidating! Not sure our high speed Haas would even be capable of the required finish quality.

I'm not familiar with the capabilities with laser etching. Not sure it could go deep enough. My engraving attempts worked well enough to get the job done, but I am just not getting the tool performance I would hope for. Thanks Obama! I can always cut the lettering out of graphite and burn them in with an EDM, but I would prefer not to. Trying to move away from that.
isotopesope is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2014, 02:19 PM   #16
isotopesope
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 265783
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: colorado springs
Vehicle:
2008 wrx

Default

success!!!

after two months of testing i have found my solution! i think the crux of the success comes from trying a indexed engraver, AND using a plunge engage. all of my testing has been using a 3* ramp angle, which is typical practice for the cavity sinking i do. i think the ramping was causing too much side load for the tool and causing the problems with the tips breaking off or perhaps with those slivers chipping off the relief edge of the solid cutters. this indexed cutter also hated ramping.



http://everede.net/nine9_2013_index_engr_tool.html

so with this 45* tool, TiAlN coated insert, using decreasing depths of cut (.008, .005, .004), 11k RPM, .000325" FPT, 50% feed plunge engages, i am getting superior tool performance and NO burrs! stoked!

thanks to everyone who contributed their ideas and experiences.
isotopesope is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2014, 07:41 PM   #17
jvangelder
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 358395
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: NH
Vehicle:
05 STI

Default

Intreasting, i may have to order one of these

Good to know you got it worked out.
jvangelder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2014, 09:06 PM   #18
isotopesope
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 265783
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: colorado springs
Vehicle:
2008 wrx

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvangelder View Post
Intreasting, i may have to order one of these

Good to know you got it worked out.
this tool is incredible. earlier this week i ran it through both halves of a flood-welded dieset (four panels of engraving), and not even a tenth wore off. i measured the hardness of the weld at 52 HRC.

(they flood weld the dies to make the cavities harder and increase die life.)
isotopesope is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.