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Brakes & Suspension Forum sponsored by The Tire Rack |
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03-22-2005, 08:15 PM | #1 |
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I am using Whitline Flatout springs. Is my car too low?
24.25" ground to plastic lip inside rear fender - both sides
25.25" LF 25.3/8" RF I just read a post where some said Whitline Flatout springs were designed with Konis in mind (or something to that effect). I really like the feel of the springs I have. Can I use Koni inserts saftly with them? I will track my WRXwgn for the first time this summer. Are the spring rates for these too soft for a road course? If you think these are too low and too soft I'll give Prodrive or the new SPT pinks a try (don't yet know which would be better for me yet-more research). When funds are limited it's just sooo much more difficult to make a decision. I usually only have one chance to get it right. Thank for any help, Drew
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03-22-2005, 09:15 PM | #2 |
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Vehicle:2002 WRX wagon silver |
First, FYI: the standard measurement for lowering springs is from wheel center strainght up to the fender lip. If you measure from the ground, then any difference in tire diameter can fog the equation.
"Is my car too low?" The question is, too low for what? From a pure performance point of view, "yes." Even Whiteline, on their website, admits their "Control" springs are the better performers, while "Flatout" springs are lower than optimum for those who want that more "slammed" look. That said, your springs are not "too" low, and they should work great with a set of Konis. Prodrive springs wouldn't be a big difference from what you have, but the SPT Pinks would be an upgrade with more aggressive spring rates and less lowering. |
03-22-2005, 09:47 PM | #3 |
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Sorry;
13.5" F 12 3/8" R I drive very "spiritedly" (is that a word) on the street and with the (future) exception of front camber plates, (to set max neg. on track day), I am hoping to find the best, (almost) set it and forget it suspension setup (and as cheaply as I can get away with). Mark, it looks like you have been around the block once or twice, what would you guess the spring rates are of the "flatout" springs? Compared to wgn Pinks, and Prodrives? There seems to be soo much info out there. If people would send me everything they have I would be more then happy to consolidate it all. Goal is a comfortable daily driver. Hit a pothole not have to give the wife and kids dramimine to keep them from loosing their luch (which they are close to doing with my springs on stock struts). Later, the occasional road course event. That's all... I was thinking the Prodrives were the only way to go after reading all the posts over the last couple of weeks but was bit weary of the firmer spring rates that someone said they had over the flatout springs. Then throw in the mix the relatively new pink springs, and I'm unsure again. I understand to those who are aware of it all and who are more experienced are running out of patience but, if I could afford to spend the kind of $ to experiment myself I would do so (then contribute more to the forum). Thanks Mark, P.S. Konis are but a month away... |
03-22-2005, 10:57 PM | #4 |
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Stock ride height for a WRX wagon is 15.24" front, 14.80" rear. That makes you -1.74" in front, and a whopping -2.42" rear. For reasons of camber curve and roll center that's too low in front, and that's WAY too low in the rear - it leaves you with little suspension travel to keep you off the bump stops.
The Whiteline springs are progressive, and I have no direct experience or heresay to draw on to speculate about them stiffness-wise. I can tell you that a lot of folks rave about the Prodrive/Koni combo for a sporty but comfortable daily driver - even on a wagon. Prodrives aren't all that stiff, so I don't think you or the wife and kids would find them too harsh, and the Konis are adjustable so they can be comfy for the family but more aggressive when you're alone. The SPT Wagon Pink springs are even stiffer than the Prodrives, and are 04 style, meaning you would need to upgrade to 04 style rear strut tops for them to fit. |
03-22-2005, 11:50 PM | #5 |
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Whiteline spring rates:
progressive rate springs Control Front Wagon/Sedan(00-05) 80066 175>200 lbs/in Flatout Front Wagon/Sedan(00-05) 83028A 175>200 lbs/in Control Rear Wagon 83162 106>177 lbs/in Control Rear Sedan (00-02) 83158 106>177 lbs/in Control Rear Sedan (02-04)73194 106>177 lbs/in Flatout Rear Sedan (02-04) 73195 106>177 lbs/in Control Rear Sedan (00-02) 83142 106>177 lbs/in If you really want a great pseudo set and forget suspension, I would simply pair 02/03 Prodrive springs with Koni inserts. You will be more than satisfied with the performance and aesthetics of the car. The spring rate of the new STi Wagon springs are nice but they are for 04/05 cars and tophats. Koni has yet to release 04/05 inserts. When you pair the current 02/03 inserts with the 04/05 rear hats you will get knocking if you don't use a washer to help fix the knock. If you are willing to risk the knock or live with the mickey mouse washer solutions (and many do) then the 04/05 STi wagon spring plus Koni inserts would be one step above the Prodrive/Koni setup, IMHO. |
03-23-2005, 12:20 AM | #6 |
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Ok, got it...finally. I thought it to be a little low but through it all it still looks good.
Occasionally I'll hit a freeway reflector that slightly jarrs the chassis-enough to the point that I try to avoid them . A 1" pothole and I get a BANG!, and immediately think I need to inspect for a cracked rim or something. Wasn't nearly this bad when the struts were new. What are you both running suspension wise, and do you both auto-x? Are 17" rims better on the wagon than 18", considering some occasional track time? Another thing, just trying to understand "roll center"...since the car is too low the upward movement of the suspension is limited? So imagining this, the strut is always partially compressed and limited also in travel, does it affect it's damping/rebound, or it that linear?, and everything is closer to the bump stop? Also, hypothetically (SP?), if I were keeping a very low spring I should mod the struts so Koni inserts sit lower (for more stroke) and remove part of the bump stop? If thsi is true wouldn't it also affect over all width between the tires-(track), and if that worked wouldn't it be better because of the lower center of gravity? Please tell me I'm close, because it's starting to make sense. |
03-23-2005, 12:20 AM | #7 |
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Vehicle:2003 Silver Wagon Tuned with Enginuity |
See this thread for more detail.
In summary (ride heights measured from center of hub to highest point on arch of fender), mm first, then inches: Stock WRX sedan: 396/376 15.59/14.80 Stock WRX wagon: 387/376 15.24/14.80 Stock STi sedan: 386/366 15.20/14.41 Suggested Drops (subtract 9mm or .35" for wagon for front): Street: 365/355 14.37/13.97 Track: 350/340 13.78/13.39 Super!: 343/330 13.5/13 Looks like the Whiteline Flatout springs get you into the Super! range where you need extra stiff springs to control body roll and bottomming. Not ideal for handling, but I bet it looks great. I would throw on a set of the Whiteline Control springs and live with the added ride height but better suspension geometry that results with smaller drop. The Control springs should get you a drop in the Street suggested drop range. From what I've seen with the Prodrives, you end up with the rear dropped about 1" and the front dropped about 1 3/4" in the front which would put ride height around 13.5"F/13.5"R. Nice even drop if that's what you're looking for but a tiny bit of a compromise in the handling department which is why I would suggest the Control springs instead. That said, you will be fine simply pairing up the Flatout springs you've got with Koni shocks. Save the $225-275 on new springs and get new tophats or swaybars instead. You can always swap out the springs later if they don't perform as you expect on the track, but they should be fine, especially once you get some good shocks under them. |
03-23-2005, 12:25 AM | #8 | ||
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Vehicle:2003 Silver Wagon Tuned with Enginuity |
Quote:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ht=roll+center Quote:
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03-23-2005, 12:27 AM | #9 |
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03-23-2005, 12:38 AM | #10 |
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One thing I've found is that some progressive springs (which is pretty much all springs out there!) don't seem to jive very well with the koni inserts. I know Whiteline uses the koni insert in its suspension kits but I think they are valved a bit differently than stock.
Makoto was running Eibach Prokits on his Koni's and he was just hating the ride quality even at the softer settings. We put the Prodrive spring on there (linear springs) and he is totally in love with the ride now. Said it immediately felt better matched to the strut. As much of a fan of Whiteline that I am, i don't like their springs as much. The progressive coil to linear coil just ramps up too steeply. Or maybe the rears start too soft and then jump up to the stiffer coils rather steeply and makes for a weird ride somehow. I dunno. I had the Controls on my V5 struts and then I had P1 springs. The P1's felt better. Perhaps that is an unfair comparison because the P1 was designed around that strut. but anyway, the transition from the softer part of the spring to the harder part just felt smoother on the P1 compared to the Whiteline. Anyway, back on topic.... I think, regardless of what spring you end up with, the Koni's, even when matched up with your current springs will improve your ride tremendously. Ideally it would be great to have the struts rebuilt with a shorter shaft straight from Koni before you put them in. That way you will still have max travel in the strut regardless of the spring. I prefer 17" wheels over 18"s, all things considered. usually lighter, cheaper and the handling at the limit is usually more progressive with the taller sidewall. I'm running Whiteline Group 4 coilovers, Whiteline F/R swaybars, comfort ALK, Whiteline Alu HD endlinks, 17" Rota Tarmacs and Kumho 712 (don't like these tires much). |
03-23-2005, 12:48 AM | #11 |
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Vehicle:2008 LGT Spec-B stg4 Now: Chevy SS Sedan! |
I know this has been hashed out before somewhere so I reeeely appreciate it. Before I get into it, I owe you all a beer Just come on out to Yorba Linda...pizza, beer, wash/detail, watch John Felsteds Nurburgring video on my 57" HDTV....
drees, Ok, not ideal for handling? I am really missing out on my wgns' potential because it seems to handle pretty well on the street...Hmmmm, maybe I have to push it harder to see the light. What do you think of D_Rex's strut spacers? Just a plethoria of info. is it memorized?...wow, I need to spend a day absorbing all this info. How do these ride heights compare to the Prodrives? Can you also elaborate on why the Control springs may be better than the Prodrives (compromise?)? You mentioned swaybars so I thought I'd mention my current mods (not many); aforementioned springs, whiteline swaybars F+R, comfort ALK, 225/45/17 on GB451s, Ultimate pads, SS lines , Motul fluid, tomorrow buying new oem rotors, H6 conversion- (later-2pc fronts) Last edited by Drew888; 03-23-2005 at 01:16 AM. |
03-23-2005, 12:55 AM | #12 |
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Drew - did you ever get a ride with makoto?
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03-23-2005, 01:17 AM | #13 |
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No, that would be cool though....
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03-23-2005, 01:22 AM | #14 |
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Sorry, I was typing my reply and walked away to get a drink...you already answered my question.
Thanks to those links I'll be up a while reading. I almost enjoy the little nuances of suspension/handling characteristics, the seat of your pants feel when you have made that oh so little adjustment that only you seem to feel, better than the go fast bits.....almost. Any of you order Johns' DVD? |
03-23-2005, 01:37 AM | #15 |
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NOt yet! Jamie told me she has a set coming in in a few days. I'll be ordering that up. I guess I could just borrow it from Makofoto. He has it.
yeah, drop Mike a PM and get a long drive in his car on YOUR roads, if possible. Its great to be able to make a direct comparison on roads you know. Or find some roads and drive them first in your car and then do them in his. |
03-23-2005, 01:43 AM | #16 |
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Here is some more fun reading while you are at it!
Swaybars vs. Stiff springs http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=706910 |
03-23-2005, 01:54 AM | #17 |
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hey uncle andrew. its me ryan. looks like you got some work cut out for you. good luck with the research and the choice you make with your suspension mods. dont forget to take me along in the summer
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03-23-2005, 02:38 AM | #18 |
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Hey Ryan! Small world....I can't seem to hide long enough from anyone
There is a canyon drive, kind of mellow though-with a nice stop for lunch, coming up the first weekend of April. Wanna go....? I'm hoping to do a road course event or 2 this summer. You are welcome to go to those as well, I could use a copilot. Just let me know. |
03-23-2005, 02:42 AM | #19 |
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Arnie thanks!
I feel like I was just given homework Off Topic, wasn't there an old guy thread a while back? I'd rather meet up with peers over a BBQ sometime, rather than the parking lot meet... ....rereading that statment....I can't stop laughing. I can't be getting old...er |
03-23-2005, 02:55 AM | #20 |
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Yes, homework! and this will count towards 50% of your final grade!
I like meeting in parking lots! Easy access to check out the cars. though I suppose our old fogies are 37-38 and I'm "only" 36. Just noticing I've been on this board for almost 5 years now. ugh. I need to get a life! Up in the BAIC, we used to have the Mt. hamilton drive and barbecue. It was pretty coolio. I guess we can have a streets of willow or buttonwillow drive and eat! |
03-23-2005, 02:59 AM | #21 |
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Join Date: May 2001
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37-ish, (one day 22, another 90 ), sorta new to SoCal (wife got me here, we had 2 kids, just now starting to get out form under the rock)
BAIC? Last edited by Drew888; 03-23-2005 at 03:02 AM. Reason: my spelinck sucks -late night |
03-23-2005, 03:25 AM | #22 |
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Bay Area I Club - san francisco.
well I'll work my lazy ass down to the OC one of these days and we can have bbq. we moved down here from Germany via SF. I miss the autobahn!!!!! |
03-23-2005, 10:30 AM | #23 |
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what day in particular were you talking about in april?
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