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Old 08-10-2009, 05:39 PM   #26
goto_racing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sureshot007 View Post
...I am able to lock the wheels with the abs off, but it doesn't have the same sort of force. What makes their brake systems work so much better than mine?

For reference, the cars I am talking about are a Type R, R32 Golf, C5 Z06, and all were at autox. My last setup was Hawk HP+, slotted rotors and Hankook C50 275/17s, ATE Super Blue fluid.
The "sensation" of stopping generated by your inner ear is responding to your accelaration. It's a simple a = F/m. Your tires are only capable of generating so much force before they lock, regardless if your brake setup is capable of more. Once you reach this limit, your car's mass determines how fast you shed speed.

So if you want to make "a" bigger, I would start by making "m" smaller. Get that weight out. Now work on "F" by getting stickier and bigger rubber. For most people gettier sticker tires is easier, and getting weight out is hard. So they get sticky rubber and now find themselves capable of creating more force than the brake system can handle(can't lock up), so upgrading the brakes becomes a requirement.

Weight is free, start there.

Chris Lock
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Old 08-10-2009, 05:43 PM   #27
vinxH
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it was only a matter of time before someone came in here talking like a physics professor.


anyway, he said an R32 brakes better than his car, and the R32 isn't lighter than a WRX. I'm pretty positive he just *thinks* his car doesn't brake as good as others in the same class, when in reality he's just used to his car's characteristics. BTW, its not a fair comparison to compare to other cars with a better brake system either.


If you are able to lock up your brakes easily, then get better tires and get a better suspension with less travel. Springs by itself are pretty worthless IMO, that is about the best you can do as far as "feel like it brakes good" goes. If you want to step into a better territory, upgrade your brakes to a better system. If your brake fluid is old, flush it out and put in fresh fluid... this is also important, I would recommend to flush out super blue every 1 year.

Last edited by vinxH; 08-10-2009 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 08-10-2009, 06:14 PM   #28
neko
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i will completely agree tho, my stock 03 wrx scared me to death the first emergency stop i had to make (cut off by minivan jumping into turn lane at redlight). i honestly thought i was gonna hit them. after installing 4/2pots, ss lines, and good fluid, it felt worlds better...
the oem 4pots use a smaller pad in the front helping to give better initial bite/feel.
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Old 08-10-2009, 09:03 PM   #29
goto_racing
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it was only a matter of time before someone came in here talking like a physics professor.
And that makes you the marketing guy?

Chris Lock
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Old 08-10-2009, 09:13 PM   #30
cucamelsmd15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leecea View Post
the Suby needs a good bit of travel to get that
You can fix that, you know...
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Old 08-10-2009, 10:18 PM   #31
grippgoat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sureshot007 View Post
As for suspension, I have Koni SA with 500lb springs.
Hrm. So you could be under-damped. I'm not sure how you'd test that, but I know on my miata with old tired Konis and stiff FM springs, the brakes feel like crap, because the front end doesn't properly settle and let the tires do their thing. With the same tires and brake pads, it never felt like that when I was on Tein Flex. I could use way more brake without ABS engagement.

One mistake drivers make (I'm sure I'd still make it if I autocrossed), is to jam the pedal too hard, until they feel ABS or lockup, and then leave the pressure there. You really need "squeeze" the brakes. Smooth out the initial engagement, let the weight transfer, and keep adding more pedal pressure as the weight transfers.

To test the pad temp theories, the test is pretty simple. Just take the car out on the street and see if the brakes get better as they get hotter. You can experiment with pedal technique, too.

-Mike
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Old 08-11-2009, 07:21 AM   #32
sti s204
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Originally Posted by cucamelsmd15 View Post
You can fix that, you know...

Now that is interesting...........

Can you tell us how to fix it?

I have tried many things to make the travel smaller. I used to drive VW and Audi and they have a very hard pedal, like stepping on a stone.

I upgraded my car (WRX 2007) with 6 piston setup from HiSpec, SS lines front and rear, Pagid pads and the brakecylinder brace but still no change.

Yes it does brake but the travel doesn't give me the feel i am in control of braking.
On Youtube there is this movie of a testrun with the STI S204. You can see the driver hit the brakes and only press the pedal like 1-2 inches. Mini is more like 3 inches before i actually feel some heavy stopping power.
The 204 is as far as i know equipped with the same brakes as a normal STI.
But the question is.....is the WRX equipped the same as the STI (besides calipers and discs)
Is the brake booster and brake cylinder the same?

I really hate the feel of it now. Want to do a major turbo upgrade etc. but not before i know for sure i cant upgrade or change anything on my brakes to increase the "pedal feel"

Any information would be welcome.

regards
Wijnand
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Old 08-11-2009, 07:37 AM   #33
cucamelsmd15
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Its easy. If youre not a n00b, and you understand what youre about to do:

There are two large nuts behind the pedal (forget the sizes), but you can adjust these to take out the slack. If youre adventurous, you can also remove the factory specified free play, but it can (and will) cause your brakes to drag. I had mine set up this way (as little slack as possible with light to no dragging), and as soon as you touch the pedal, it works.
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Old 08-11-2009, 11:40 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by grippgoat View Post
I've gotta ask what your suspension setup is, particularly shocks.
This is where I'd look if the pads are up to temp and the tires are good. My crappy MY02 WRX with stock brakes, XP10's and Victoracers has incredible stopping feel for a few laps before things get overheated. I found ss lines really did help with feel, but on the street it doesn't feel as connected as many other cars I've owned. Change the MC if that really bothers you.
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Old 08-11-2009, 08:46 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cucamelsmd15 View Post
Its easy. If youre not a n00b, and you understand what youre about to do:

There are two large nuts behind the pedal (forget the sizes), but you can adjust these to take out the slack. If youre adventurous, you can also remove the factory specified free play, but it can (and will) cause your brakes to drag. I had mine set up this way (as little slack as possible with light to no dragging), and as soon as you touch the pedal, it works.
Unfortunately, the engagement point of the brake light switch isn't adjustable, if you take out ALL the free play, you're going to get a non-trivial amount of braking before your brake lights go on. I wasn't comfortable with that, so I left a wee bit of free play in.

-Mike
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Old 08-11-2009, 09:01 PM   #36
cucamelsmd15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grippgoat View Post
Unfortunately, the engagement point of the brake light switch isn't adjustable, if you take out ALL the free play, you're going to get a non-trivial amount of braking before your brake lights go on. I wasn't comfortable with that, so I left a wee bit of free play in.

-Mike
Thats correct. But, even with mine set up like they were, I never had a problem. I guess if you had a decent amount of drag it would be a problem though. *shrug*
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Old 08-11-2009, 09:02 PM   #37
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I just adjusted mine to make H&T work best. I have no issues with my brakes. Brembo's and some race pads (Carbo's normally but, soon DTC-60's). Mine will stop the car, every time from whatever speed I'm going limited only by my tires. The feel isn't the greatest but, it doesn't affect my ability to modulate the brakes.

You know, camber will hurt braking. Since I have nearly 6 degree's of castor, I find I need less front camber. I don't actually feel the difference in braking but, it's supposed to make a difference.
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Old 08-11-2009, 11:16 PM   #38
mla163
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The June 2008 GRM had a pretty good article on "Brake Myths exposed".
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