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02-12-2010, 03:58 PM | #451 |
Merci Buckets
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I think I'm still going to get the injectors, plugs, clutch, and bcs installed this weekend. Gives me a week to get used to the bcs and fine tune the maf for the larger injectors. Should make it a rather easy couple hours to get the turbo on next weekend too. That and having all the same parts for before and after pulls means we can see exactly what the 19T wheel adds.
And I decided to change the thread title slightly since we're discussing a lot more than just the Blouch upgrade these days.
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Last edited by Scooby921; 02-12-2010 at 04:06 PM. |
02-12-2010, 04:37 PM | #452 |
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Yes, thanks for this, it's always difficult to find good "back to back" style comparisons. I know why, I mean it's a PITA for sure, I've faced it myself. It's way easier to do half a dozen things at once while you already have things apart. Single mod changes with before / after are rare, but valuable.
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02-12-2010, 05:29 PM | #453 | |
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Quote:
And +1 to you having everything ready, to get a good back to back comparison. You know I just realized this really is the ticket for guys at higher elevations. The smaller hotside won't hurt as much since the air is less dense vs sea level, the compressor will operate more efficiently generating worthwhile boost from the less dense air, and its small enough to spin up fast in the thin air. I think this turbo would make more sense to guys at 5-6k+ ft than those of us closer to sea level, when compared to a larger aftermarket turbo. Just my .02$ |
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02-12-2010, 06:05 PM | #454 | |
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Quote:
I know, I know, it's still a prototype. IMO I believe that it will help staying closed. Furthermore, I will be upgrading the actuator to a Forge Adjustable IWG, with the one bar spring. But that will most likely be after this dyno meet... Cheers, and always thanx scooby921 for your POV, ~Wolf WTi |
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02-12-2010, 06:18 PM | #455 | |
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Oh damn! that sux wicked bad! I'm sorry to hear that... I guess that's why I love colorado, well steamboat especially. I have an 82 BRAT with too many goodies to list (electric locker) and she is looking at 340K miles on the clock!!! Everyone in this town has or does own a subie. Most locals are die hard subie daily drivers, we do get 330 inches of snow on average per winter! We are also home to the bridgestone blizzak winter driving course. The road to get there is called "20 mile road" (notoriously known for no pigs and equally matched with it's curves and straights for 20 miles). Off 20 mile road is also home to the Cogg Rally Road of Rally America Series... Steamy-B the only place to be Cheers, ~Wolf WTi |
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02-12-2010, 08:34 PM | #456 | |
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Quote:
Comparing compressor maps, An EVO III 16G will outflow the 19T by as much as 100 cfm at 2.8 PR, however I believe this extra capacity may be wasted on an EJ205 with stock heads, manifolds, and a TMIC. At 6500 rpm with an assumed VE of 90% (probably generous for stock heads, etc) the theoretical engine volumetric demand with an assumed DR of 2.5 (assuming 2 psi induction loss, 70% compressor efficiency, and 80% IC efficiency) is ~520 cfm. To make full use of the extra capacity of the EVO III, I believe further supporting mods would be required (head/manifold work, TGV deletes, FMIC, etc.) In addition to better VE obtained with the larger hotside, the advantage the EVO III provides at higher elevations is the ability to push 520 cfm at 3.3 PR which would allow as much as 23 psi boost in the upper-range. With this capability, there is no doubt in my mind that the EVO III is a superior upper-range option to the TD04-19T (and most likely 18g and 20g as well by the way). Of course all the above may be just theoretical hot air, but after discussing this with Adam at Revolutions Performance this past week, I believe it can be validated by hard data. As has been stated previously in this thread, in the absence of time slips, the best method of comparing performance may be back-to-back pulls on the same dyno using the same dyno calibrations and atmo corrections. Next best may be comparing pulls all done on the same dyno, and that data is what I present below. Please do not evaluate this out of context. The data from these pulls was captured on a Dyno Dynamics at 6000 ft. elevation. For various reasons (which I agree with), the tuner (Adam) chose to apply only half of the atmo correction to the actual WTQ measured. Therefore, the results below may seem low compared to the numbers that some may be accustomed to comparing from say a Dynojet with full atmo correction applied. The following data is from Adams recollection of best results obtained with E85 on stock block/head EJ205s with TMICs over the past several years. 18G 285-290 WHP EVO III 16G 280 small 16G 245-250 VF39 240-245 Stock 2.0L 155 (gasoline) So for comparison, my best pull with the clipped TD04L-19T on this dyno was 260WHP using a half correction (in this case 1.125) as was applied to the other data. Pretty much about where i expected to end-up when combining the very good high altitude performance of the 19T compressor with the VE penalty of the relatively small hotside. Not bad all things considered... Last edited by knuts; 02-13-2010 at 07:30 AM. Reason: clarificaton of stock wrx fuel |
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02-13-2010, 01:56 AM | #457 | |
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Wiiicked
260awhp w/ e85 and a stock 2.0 w/ TD04
Cheers knuts! Now we just gotta see what the TD04H wheel does w/ the 19T ~Wolf WTi p.s. Do you have the dyno graph? Quote:
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02-13-2010, 12:10 PM | #458 |
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^Both pulls are with E85 on the TD04L-19T at 6000 ft elevation. 1.125 atmo correction applied for reasons stated in post #456. Red is before, Blue after adding IA while tuning for E85.
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02-13-2010, 09:25 PM | #459 |
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Knuts I agree wholeheartedly on the pressure ratio thing. I too noticed that when I was comparing the 19T to the small 16G. That's why I believe anyone that lives above 6k feet or so should really look into this (well...at least anyone with a 2.0L motor).
Also ~260 whp is very respectable at that elevation with that correction factor. I still can't get over how awesome E85 is! |
02-13-2010, 09:32 PM | #460 |
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I've had my 19T for a few months now and I'm very happy with it. I've got a road tune slated for early March which should bring the ultimate potential out of my setup (remote tuned so far). After that I'll get it dynoed for you guys :P
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02-13-2010, 11:58 PM | #461 | |
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Quote:
subie + corn = whoa fast Cheers, ~Wolf WTi |
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02-15-2010, 07:11 AM | #462 |
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So what kind of WHP would these figures above be if tuned at sea level and where would this Ebay turbo that uses the larger wheel theoretically sit in the mix of things? I.E. Would it be closer to the EVO III, somewhere in between a clipped 19t and EVO III or?
BTW, how much torque were the other turbos tested putting down? That clipped 19T produced a ton of torque that could easily shatter any trans shy of a 6 speed or PPG gear set. |
02-15-2010, 09:44 AM | #463 | |
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02-15-2010, 12:53 PM | #464 |
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I spent some time yesterday evening and this morning further exploring the boundaries of the clipped TD04L-19T. I wanted to take advantage of the cold dry air passing thru. The temp was around -10C, giving a density altitude of < 5000 ft for my road test location.
On a 3rd gear pull , I was able to hit 24 psi boost (3800-4400 rpm) tapering to 20 at redline (see datalog below). MAFv exceeded 4.0 volts before 3700 rpm on this run. Peak MAFv was 4.36V at 6000 rpm. On a subsequent run, I turned the boost down to 19 peak tapering to 16psi to get a back-to-back evaluation of the increase in MAF with boost level. At 4000 rpm, an 18% increase in absolute manifold pressure resulted in a 13% increase in MAF (g/s calculated by the ecu from stock intake calibration). At 6000 rpm, a 12% increase in AMP netted only a 4% increase in MAF. The efect on VE of the high EGBP required to drive the little clipped TD04L to very high PRs is evident in the upper range with less than 35% of the additional AMP turned into MAF. Again, to be clear, the above data was only collected to explore the limits of the turbo. Obviously operating the little guy under these conditions for an extended period of time is likely to cause a failure. To reach the ~ 3.3 peak PR obtained during this run, the turbine speed was likely approaching 200, 000 rpm! Code:
RPM g/s MAFv Boost 2400 42.86 2.6 4.21 2429 43.6 2.6 4.35 2509 45.67 2.7 4.64 2516 46.63 2.72 4.93 2586 49.51 2.74 5.37 2618 51.59 2.8 5.51 2694 57.14 2.88 6.38 2726 61.55 2.94 6.82 2775 64.31 2.98 7.25 2846 71.15 3.04 8.41 2886 75.36 3.16 8.99 2972 83.91 3.24 10.44 3027 89.29 3.3 11.31 3133 102.28 3.46 13.92 3180 113.62 3.54 15.08 3349 143.62 3.78 17.84 3427 158.4 3.86 19.44 3595 174.11 3.96 22.19 3678 181.31 4.02 23.21 3844 188.55 4.04 24.22 3926 193.28 4.06 24.37 4134 195.11 4.14 24.22 4222 199.14 4.12 24.08 4360 206.91 4.18 23.93 4432 208.82 4.18 23.93 4601 212.26 4.22 23.79 4678 216.84 4.26 23.5 4767 219.51 4.26 23.35 4950 223.9 4.28 22.77 5036 227.67 4.32 22.34 5126 224.24 4.32 21.76 5255 229.39 4.32 21.61 5380 231.55 4.32 21.32 5411 229.39 4.34 21.18 5543 231.97 4.34 20.74 5651 233.26 4.34 20.45 5747 231.11 4.34 20.45 5800 232.83 4.34 20.16 5919 232.41 4.34 20.16 5975 232.41 4.34 20.16 6097 233.26 4.34 20.31 6097 234.12 4.36 20.16 6244 237.57 4.36 20.02 6302 233.69 4.34 20.02 6382 232.41 4.34 20.16 6437 233.69 4.34 20.31 6482 234.55 4.36 20.31 6533 231.55 4.34 20.16 6601 233.69 4.36 20.16 6654 230.69 4.34 20.45 6732 234.12 4.34 20.31 6750 231.55 4.34 20.45 6830 231.55 4.34 20.31 |
02-16-2010, 09:58 AM | #465 |
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Thanks.
I don't think driving like a moron has a thing to do with a transmission breaking unless you wanted to have this discussion with guys that have been in this game for 10-15 years and have broken gears under normal driving circumstances. I have seen that tuned TD04 and it's crazy what it is producing...almost doesn't make sense by virtue of physics. I didn't see what dyno did this test, but if it was on a Mustang, again, it's almost defying or perhaps is defying physics since the 13T is so puny. VF's cannot produce 300WHP on a Mustang w/exception of the VF22 w/EWG running 25psi boost perhaps. 16G's have been close, but only a few have succeeded at pushing them to 300WHP and I don't remember if the one and only thread I can recall was done on a Mustang or not. Even the Big EVO III cannot make that number or if it does, it is by a hair. And torque wise, they cannot produce the same torque as the 300WHP fineline they are approaching/borderlining. I think the "only" turbo that one could safely say can produce 300WTQ on a 2.0L would be something in the 20G 8cm+ range. And safely saying 300WHP would require a larger sized 18G turbo. Just all of my studying and also multiple discussions on people that have used and know these turbos extremely well. Now on Meth and E85, maybe the 16G's start making closer to 300WTQ, but I'd like to see one ftw. Peace! |
02-16-2010, 11:10 AM | #466 | |
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Quote:
A small turbo, such as the TD04 IS COMPLETELY CAPABLE of making 300 wtq. It will take upwards of 22 psi to make that happen, on pump+ meth, or E85, but it is totally possible. Sure it can only make 250whp or so at max, but its definitly capable of high torqe. (Ever see a stage 2 WRX that has the 2.5L motor?) VF's can ABSOLUTELY produce 300whp. (especially on E85 with the 2.5L STI motor) and upwards of 400wtq on a mustang dyno. Search through the proven power bragging. In fact I would say the only turbo you claim to be capable of making 300 wtq on a 2.0L is one of the poorest choices for a daily driven 2.0L. With the 8cm hotside (presuming TD06 wheel but could be TD05) you won't see peak torque until around 4,500 RPM. To me that's pretty significant lag when your redlining at 7000 RPM. Not to mention a 20G is completely capable of rendering the EJ205 into a pile of broken metal bits. You clearly have not done your research through the proven power bragging. Search for opposite locks dyno. He's the stock wrx turbo (2.0L TD04) record holder at 12.4 @ 109. (think lots of torque). |
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02-16-2010, 03:18 PM | #467 | |
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Modded TD04s are going to be disappointing on paper if all you care about is peak numbers (sadly I feel like most people are). The drivers of stock turbo and modded turbo cars will tell you they are an absolute blast to drive. Having torque below 4000rpm is fun. E85 is not convenient in my area, I'm not shelling out the money for race gas, and meth injection is too risky (having injection fail and blowing an engine) for my daily driver. |
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02-16-2010, 03:20 PM | #468 | |
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02-16-2010, 03:55 PM | #469 | |
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Quote:
Sorry, I did not ask about peak torque values. Generally speaking though, the turbo that produces the highest boost near the peak VE engine speed (~3500 to 4000 rpm for an EJ205 with stock heads, etc.) will net the highest peak torque value. Any of the TD04 or 16Gs will be very similar in this regard... Last edited by knuts; 02-17-2010 at 09:25 AM. |
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02-16-2010, 08:43 PM | #470 |
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So, anybody match a 19t compressor wheel with a tdo4h turbine yet? This combo should give a 18g a run for its money with much better spool...
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02-16-2010, 10:10 PM | #471 | |
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Run for the money in what terms? On the drag strip the 18g is still going to stomp an equivalent TD04 or TE04, autocross might favor a stock turbo, etc. |
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02-16-2010, 11:57 PM | #472 |
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02-17-2010, 04:39 PM | #473 | |
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Quote:
It's not an "EBAY turbo", it is a turbo made by Performance Techniques in CA (building turbo's since 80's) that happens to sell some of their "Monstah" TD04's (TD04H/19T) on EBAY. Sorry haven't been on the thread in a day or two... ...just wanted to clarify Cheers, ~Wolf WTi --- Steamboat Springs, CO |
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02-17-2010, 04:51 PM | #474 | |
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WHOA THAT IS KNUTZ! (pun intended haha ) Cheers, ~Wolf WTi |
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02-17-2010, 05:11 PM | #475 | |
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...I might (YES! ) haha. Check out the rest of this thread. This is a BIG deal to myself and a lot of people in here. This thread started as just the Blouch 19T compressor wheel upgrade to a TD04 on a 2.0 rex... The Performance Techniques "Monstah" TD04 19T/TD04H could be the upgrade from the Blouch 19T upgrade. Time will tell soon! Cheers, ~Wolf |
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