Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday March 29, 2024
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Built Motor Discussion

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-09-2010, 10:15 PM   #1
williaty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Licking County, Ohio
Vehicle:
2005 2.5RS Wagon
Regal Blue Pearl

Default Help Me With This Engine Autopsy

I've got an engine in mid-teardown. Due to outside factors, I didn't manage to get the whole thing opened up tonight so I'll be digging through the engine more tomorrow is search of answers. Here's what's up with it:

1) Engine is a 2005 EJ253 (2.5L SOHC non-turbo) with 122k miles on it.
2) Engine was at 2400RPM, low throttle when the failure began (first noises heard).
3) Engine was run at race-level intensity for 20 minutes after first noises.
4) First noises sounded exactly like an exhaust leak from inside the cabin (hence not stopping immediately).
5) There was no major loss of power or other negative driving symptoms at the time.
6) The sound appeared to be coming from the left side of the engine, under the intake manifold, roughly where the headgasket is.
7) When the left side valve cover was removed during teardown, the lock-nut for the Cylinder 2 rear intake valve was missing. The rocker adjustment screw was fully backed out and the peened end was firmly stuck into the rocker arm
8) The nut was *somewhere* in the left side head when teardown began. To find the little bastard, though, it was chased into the right head, then back into the left head, and then finally out the bottom of the block where it finally fell onto the shop floor.
9) The rocker assemblies were removed and the cam was spun, no damage to the cam was apparent.
10) No damage to the inside of the valvecover was apparent.
11) No damage to the outer surface of the cam cap or the (few) visible surfaces of the inside of the head was apparent.
12) The oil sump had MANY large flakes of bare shiny metal in it. The flakes are between 1/8" and 3/8" on their long axis. They are non-magnetic. They're very thin, but slightly thicker than aluminum foil. If you've ever used heavy stainless steel foil for controlling the spill from stage lights, it's about like that. In the shade, resting on your finger tips, the flakes appear to have no color (just silvery). In the oil pan in the sun, the flakes appear slightly golden/yellow (but again if you pull the flake out of the can the tint goes away). Pics below.
13) 3 flakes were found stuck to the inside of the block where the oil returns from the heads to the oil sump are.

Does anyone have any idea where these flakes might have come from? I'll be pulling the cam cap off and removing the cam tomorrow. I'm hoping it'll become apparent then but I'm interested to see what you think so far.



williaty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2010, 11:09 PM   #2
c_penson
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 76550
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Dominican Republic
Default

that looks like bearing material to me...
c_penson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2010, 12:12 AM   #3
thorne
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 130063
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Ohio
Vehicle:
2003 WRX
Silb

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by c_penson View Post
that looks like bearing material to me...
Bingo.
thorne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2010, 12:15 AM   #4
williaty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Licking County, Ohio
Vehicle:
2005 2.5RS Wagon
Regal Blue Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thorne View Post
Bingo.
Welcome to last week, thorne

Tore down the block, all the rod bearings were done. Turns out my rods, wrist pins, and pistons weren't salvageable either (according to Clint) so I ordered a new crate shortblock today. It's about $700 more expensive than rebuilding with new internals, but it saves me a good month. Which is relevant when this is my only car.
williaty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2010, 11:12 PM   #5
subSTIaru
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 224925
Join Date: Sep 2009
Default

it is a bearing you have a rod knock it is not going to stick to a magnet because the bearings are made from copper
subSTIaru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2010, 11:16 PM   #6
williaty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Licking County, Ohio
Vehicle:
2005 2.5RS Wagon
Regal Blue Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by subSTIaru View Post
it is a bearing you have a rod knock it is not going to stick to a magnet because the bearings are made from copper
The material is silver, not warm colored at all, when examined underneath good light. Is copper bearing material silver even though it contains copper?
williaty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2010, 11:24 PM   #7
PSolbergfan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 112612
Join Date: Apr 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Appleton,Wisconsin
Vehicle:
2010 Legacy 2.5 CBS
2002 Impreza WRX WRB

Default

I thought subaru OEM bearings were aluminum? Still...it looks like bearing to me.
PSolbergfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2010, 11:25 PM   #8
subSTIaru
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 224925
Join Date: Sep 2009
Default

there is layers of copper steal and mixed copper with aluminum the steal part of the bearing is the baking that goes against the rod that is why you cant get it to stick the other layers fall of first and thy are not copper color in the beginning aluminum falls of first
subSTIaru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2010, 11:31 PM   #9
subSTIaru
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 224925
Join Date: Sep 2009
Default

i just looked through you post it might be part of the rocker or the nut went down towards the crank and it might have been piked up by it and rubbed against the block
subSTIaru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 12:02 AM   #10
soobaviator
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 115070
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Northern VA
Vehicle:
2009 DGM LGT Spec.B
08 Audi Q7 4.2 PRM

Default

No doubt it's bearing material. The bearings are made of at least three layers; Babbitt, copper and a spring steel shell. The babbit layer is like .0005 inches thick and very soft so a few seconds of hot running without adequate oil and it's gone. The steel of the journal wins over the copper layer of the gasket when they touch so it basically peels it off like shaving a potato skin. Next is a battle of steel between the rod journal and shell of the bearing. If the bearing shell manages to remain attached to the rod it will wear down and the journal eats it while losing a significant amount of material itself. If the bearing comes detached it rotates around between the rod and the journal. The shell will stay intact longer but it will still do damage to the journal rod, and the material that comes off may damage cam bearings, oil pumps and tear up the oil filter element.

Since you dropped the pan, hand check the rods to see if you can feel any movement. If you found one you've found the offending spun rod bearing.



-soobaviator
soobaviator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 12:53 PM   #11
cha86
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 111048
Join Date: Mar 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: AA, Mi
Vehicle:
I <3 debt

Default

its bearing. like the rest of the people said. also look at your oil there, its a milky color. thats a pretty good indication on how far the damage made it. in your case its still pretty "brown" i had 3 spun bearings in my car...the oil was literally silver and looked like milk
cha86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 01:01 PM   #12
Pavlo
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 23015
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Wellingborough, UK
Vehicle:
95-> GC8
Black, blue and blue

Default

panning for gold is never good when it comes to engines!
Pavlo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 06:23 PM   #13
sense of nature
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 112759
Join Date: Apr 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: In the V hole!
Vehicle:
2015 Stock OEM AsFu*
3.6r OMG S.C'd

Default

I hate panning for gold .. & come up w/ silver
sense of nature is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 06:37 PM   #14
jamal
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71875
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Montana
Default

my oil pan looked like this:

jamal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 07:25 PM   #15
Crazy_pilot
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 164242
Join Date: Nov 2007
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: Toronto
Vehicle:
1992 SVX
2008 Spec B

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal View Post
my oil pan looked like this:

That actually looks quite cool. You know, other than the complete disaster part of it.
Crazy_pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 08:22 PM   #16
williaty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Licking County, Ohio
Vehicle:
2005 2.5RS Wagon
Regal Blue Pearl

Default

So if Jamal's pictures represent a bearing failure, why are his flakes sub-millimeter while mine are 5-10mm?
williaty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 08:27 PM   #17
Crawford Performance
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 42075
Join Date: Aug 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Ontario Ca.
Default

Bearing material
Crawford Performance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 09:46 PM   #18
jamal
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71875
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Montana
Default

That seems pretty mild in your case, like the bearing hadn't lost all the copper when you stopped it.

Mine on the otherhand, ended up like this:



I took plenty of pictures:
http://jamalb.net/gallery/v/bearing_001/
jamal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 10:44 PM   #19
soobaviator
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 115070
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Northern VA
Vehicle:
2009 DGM LGT Spec.B
08 Audi Q7 4.2 PRM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal View Post
That seems pretty mild in your case, like the bearing hadn't lost all the copper when you stopped it.

Mine on the otherhand, ended up like this:



I took plenty of pictures:
http://jamalb.net/gallery/v/bearing_001/
How much of the rod journal did that spun bearing take out? Was the crank a tosser or could it be ground under size and reused?
soobaviator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 11:09 PM   #20
jamal
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71875
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Montana
Default

for me the rod and crank were both toast, but thankfully our machine shop gave me some used parts for practically nothing.



I'll tell you one thing, it's a lot better than the engine I pulled apart last week:

jamal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2010, 11:34 PM   #21
williaty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Licking County, Ohio
Vehicle:
2005 2.5RS Wagon
Regal Blue Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal View Post
That seems pretty mild in your case, like the bearing hadn't lost all the copper when you stopped it.

Mine on the otherhand, ended up like this:

Almost all of mine were WAAAAY worse than that. About 40% of the bearings had lost nearly half their thickness in places. I'm a little concerned now that the amount of flakes in the pan don't even come CLOSE to equaling the amount of material missing from the bearings. I hope it's inside the oil filter because if there's that much **** in the oil passages, I'm never going to get it clean.
williaty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 10:29 PM   #22
williaty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Licking County, Ohio
Vehicle:
2005 2.5RS Wagon
Regal Blue Pearl

Default

I got the left side head apart tonight (the one that lost the nut). The inside of the head and all of its parts show no signs of flaking. What they did show is that many of the surfaces had very small slivers driven out of them. I found a bunch the hard way with the tip of my finger. They're small enough that I can definitely see them making their way through the mesh on the bottom of the oil pickup, bypassing the oil filter on startup, and taking out a bearing. Which sucks, cause that's a lot more expensive!
williaty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 11:55 PM   #23
soobaviator
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 115070
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Northern VA
Vehicle:
2009 DGM LGT Spec.B
08 Audi Q7 4.2 PRM

Default

Whoa! Total piston assplosion!
soobaviator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2010, 12:10 AM   #24
john 1badSTI
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 77470
Join Date: Dec 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: grove city ohio
Vehicle:
04 sti 10.41@141
on e85@ 30psi--spinning

Default

willy with the amount and size of the brg material you found I can pretty much bet the crank is toast,at least one rod is toast and there is metal all thru-out the motor and expect to replace the oil cooler if you have one on the car.You will have to tear down the heads and clean every single oil passage to make sure there is no brg material anywhere.sorry to see this good luck on the rebuild if you need any advice pm me.
john 1badSTI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2010, 01:19 AM   #25
charliew
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 125304
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Crawford, TX.
Default

Don't forget to remove the oil passage restricters in the heads if they are the same as the dohc heads to clean the head galleries and the acvs cam pulley cavities if it has those. I'm not sure what sohc heads are like.
charliew is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Help Me ID This Engine!! bryancregger Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 1 08-13-2008 06:20 PM
OT Math/Engineering Nerds. Come Hither. Bet you cant help me with this one karnick Off-Topic 28 08-29-2006 03:52 PM
Can someone help me with an Engine Swap??? The_Triton Off-Topic 8 09-15-2005 04:26 PM
some one help me with this please enyce4u Transmission (AT/MT) & Driveline 4 02-14-2002 11:41 AM
Maybe you guys can help me with this Snowman South East Region Forum 1 03-25-2001 04:22 PM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2024 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission
Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.