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01-27-2010, 03:33 AM | #1 | |
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Hyundai is wary of direct injection in small engines
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01-27-2010, 04:53 PM | #2 |
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BMW and PSA did well with DI in the 1.6L engine in the Mini and Peugeot 207 though...
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01-27-2010, 04:59 PM | #3 |
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01-27-2010, 09:32 PM | #4 | |
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sometimes the carbon buildup is so much that the only way to clean the valves is to remove the head. they need to develop something which sprays the valves occasionally to keep the carbon from building up. |
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01-27-2010, 09:58 PM | #5 |
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I like my DI, but I am concerned I'll pull off the intake manifold one day because the engine is throwing misfire codes and find my intake ports clogged. It will be really interesting to see how DI plays out in the long term.
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01-27-2010, 10:12 PM | #6 |
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I think that's pretty fair once you get smaller the advantage also gets smaller. I am sure a thousand dollar price hike would push more people away than getting 36MPG instead of 34MPG. Also does any one know if the dual injection method that Toyota uses gets around the carbon build up issue?
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01-28-2010, 09:24 AM | #7 |
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What kind of car? I've already seen it on Minis and bmws.
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01-28-2010, 09:18 AM | #8 |
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Exactly, like a tiny port injection set up to keep the valves clean and extra fuel when needed.
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01-28-2010, 10:12 PM | #9 |
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too bad the average driver wouldnt be able to properly care for a water injection system. cool the combustion chamber a bit and keep it clean.
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01-27-2010, 10:40 PM | #10 |
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That probably has to do with DI engines creating more particulate, similar to Diesel. I don't think I've seen much talk about this, something about creating better fuel economy but at the same time burning dirtier probably wouldn't set well with the green folks.
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01-28-2010, 09:23 AM | #11 |
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On the Mini S N14 engine, its because of the oil vapor separator system. Coupled with the turbo and more oil/vapor in the intake tract, it builds up as carbon around the intake valves and ports. No fuel spraying back there to keep it clean and it really builds up, though this happens more if you dont drive the car hard.
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01-27-2010, 05:04 PM | #12 |
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Complexity/technology > Hyundai
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01-27-2010, 05:31 PM | #13 |
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01-27-2010, 09:57 PM | #14 |
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01-27-2010, 08:35 PM | #15 |
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01-27-2010, 08:47 PM | #16 |
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I saw a news article recently ao that said that DI doesn't always give a significant benefit in a lot of engines. There's some engineering behind it, it's not necessarily just a "add DI and automatically gain 10hp and 2mpg" thing. Certain regular engine configurations can apparently be more efficient without it. Some were speculating this may be why Honda hasn't seriously jumped on the bandwagon yet.
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01-29-2010, 05:06 PM | #17 |
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01-28-2010, 09:22 AM | #18 |
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It makes sense. There probably wouldn't be significant gains with DI to justify raising the price of the car. Have to keep the super cheap cars very basic.
The rest of their line will be fine with DI. Nick |
01-29-2010, 01:10 AM | #19 |
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People want direct fuel injection until they have to pay to replace the fuel pump.
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01-29-2010, 03:25 AM | #20 | |
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01-29-2010, 04:35 PM | #21 |
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This is happening on EVERY Audi RS4 right now. My friend will chime in with some photo's of his but there is a massive movement being made right now in the RS4 community where people are dyno'n the car, removing the heads, cleaning all the ****, and re-dyno'n and gaining upwards of 30-40WHP. Its insane!!!! Something will have to change.
He's in the process of completing the supercharger for the car, but he went as far as individual port meth injection, and full oil catch can setup to see if that eliminates the issue once and for all. |
01-29-2010, 04:55 PM | #22 |
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^^
Here is my 08 RS4 with severe carbon buildup at 23,000 miles. Never had a check engine light or code of any sort. The buildup was so gradual I didn't realize the power loss (-45 whp). Every single RS4 on the boards that has opened up their intake manifold had carbon buildup, even as low as 5,000 miles. There have been reports of it coming right back after having carbon buildup cleaning done. This is due to direct injection and not having fuel sprayed behind the valves to clean them. VW is aware of this problem on all of their direct injection FSI motors and has released official documents of their awareness of this being a problem. They offer no solution. With 800 miles on the odometer: With 23,000 miles on the odometer: Here are the valves after the cleanup. The cleanup was done without removing the heads. Along with the install of my supercharger, I'm installing a 8 port injection meth system and a secondary oil catch can system. Hopefully that will keep things squeeky clean! |
01-30-2010, 02:50 PM | #23 |
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Can someone explain to me how the carbon build up gets on the intake valves?
I thought that it came from the fuel being sprayed onto the valve combined with the heat of the engine... All of these DI engines DON'T get the fuel sprayed on the valve, so how does the carbon get there, and where does it come from?? |
01-30-2010, 03:25 PM | #24 | ||
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On the Audi motors the same thing is occurring because fuel does hit the back of the valves under many different conditions, and maybe there is something about the design that makes it build up even worse than your typical port injected motor. Spraying on the back of the valves is the problem, not the fix. Quote:
Now the fuel injection timing logic is a lot more complicated on a direct injected motor compared to a sequential port injected motor. During higher load operation, the injector may fire twice in one cycle and at least part of the fuel charge may be sprayed during the intake stroke so that the mixture is more homogeneous. And if you look at that first pic, you'll see that it's certainly possible to accumulate carbon on the back of the valves just like on port injected motors. During cold start, the fuel sprays during the intake stroke and then again during the power stroke to warm up the cat. I have an article from a few years ago which explains all this, although it makes no mention of carbon buildup because I don't think people had been noticing the problem yet. Just remember that late 70s port injection was pretty unreliable by today's standards. Just give it time, any 1st generation technology just needs more development. Last edited by arghx7; 01-30-2010 at 04:52 PM. Reason: injector timing |
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01-30-2010, 05:14 PM | #25 | |
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