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03-05-2008, 06:36 PM | #1 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 97352
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region:
SCIC
Location: Southern California
Vehicle:2005 6MT 35R Wagon Full STI drivetrain |
Hydra: Car died while cruising. Will not start again.
Hey guys, I have a 2005 Wagon with a built STI longblock, 35R, and all the other goodies. I have been driving this car for a month on a wastegate break in tune, with almost zero issues (other than sporatic start up problems) up until now. I was cruising at about 50mph, in 5th or 6th gear, and the motor suddenly shut down. All of the electronics in the car continued to work. I tried to start the car again, and again, and again, to no avail. It would seem like it was going to start, sputter VERY briefly, and then immediately die. I initially thought this was going to be a fuel pump/filter issue, so I had my shop check everything out while I was at work. They are telling me that I'm getting 40 psi at the FPR/rails, so it can't be the pump/filter. What would be the next step in diagnosing this issue?
Edit: I'm running a V2.5 Hydra. We haven't looked at the coil packs or sparkplugs yet, but wouldn't it take more than one fouled plug or bad coil pack to prevent the car from starting? I just don't see that as a likely scenario since all of the plugs are new, and the coil packs are in a car that only has 13k miles. It would be very strange for more than one plug/coil to suddenly fail like that.
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Last edited by BiggSean; 03-05-2008 at 06:57 PM. |
03-05-2008, 07:33 PM | #2 |
Former Vendor
Member#: 54918
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Vehicle:673 WHP Element Tuning Pro Comp Engine |
It sounds like you have a problem with either the cam or crank signal. If the Hydra does not see these the car will stall and or it will not start. To see if you are getting both signals you need to run a "crank trigger test." This is performed while connected to the Hydra with your laptop after uploading the map. Go to the tools/crank trigger test in the menu and follow the instructions. The tests should show two wave forms, a green (crank) at the top and a yellow (cam) at the bottom. If either is missing investigate.
Often with those types of engine swaps a cam sensor adaptor bracket is used and if not adjusted correctly it could loose the signal or possibly come loose. A tell tale sign it's one of those sensor would be zero attempt for the car to start and no fuel smell. Thanks, Phil www.elementtuning.com |
03-05-2008, 07:50 PM | #3 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 97352
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region:
SCIC
Location: Southern California
Vehicle:2005 6MT 35R Wagon Full STI drivetrain |
Thanks for the swift response Phil. I know that we didn't loc-tight the bolts that were used to attach the sensors, so this makes perfect sense. Hopefully this is the issue, and I will report back as soon I have the time.
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03-05-2008, 08:16 PM | #4 |
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Phil: Should we be seeing the square waves during the cranking process, or after we have finished cranking it over?
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03-05-2008, 09:38 PM | #5 |
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during
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03-05-2008, 09:50 PM | #6 |
Scooby Specialist
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Join Date: Sep 2005
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Ok, so it appears as if we aren't getting any feedback from the cam sensor. We're going to try swapping out the sensor first, and if that that doesn't work we'll test for continuity through the wiring to see if there's a short in the system.
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03-06-2008, 12:04 AM | #7 |
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We tried two different cam sensors, both with the same result. All of the wiring leading from the cam sensor harness, and into the hydra harness appeared to be intact, but I'm going to redo it anyway.
If this doesn't solve the problem, then I might have a defective Hydra on my hands. |
03-06-2008, 07:29 PM | #8 |
Former Vendor
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Join Date: Feb 2004
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You won't be able to see the wave forms during the test. When the test is completed you can scroll to the left to view the cam and crank signal waveforms.
Here are some examples from the STi: The first is good, the second is slow cranking, and the third is not reading the cam signal. If your wiring checks out it's possible the cam sensor bracket has the sensor too far from the cam sprocket. It's only magnetic so it needs to be very close. |
03-06-2008, 07:46 PM | #9 |
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Yep, I tried the crank trigger test several times after verifying all the electrical connections, and making sure that the cam sensor was in properly. All tests yielded the same result, I had a crank, but no cam waveform. Andrew suggested pulling out the hydra harness, and making sure that pin B9 was properly seated within. I'm going to try that tomorrow, otherwise it's getting sent back to Hydra.
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03-09-2008, 03:20 PM | #10 |
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Hydra has been sent to Andrew for repair.
Hey Phil, I was having a discussion with Tim about this last night, and we both were wondering how the hydra can effectively control AVCS if only one cam sensor is utilized. The hydra that I have only has one cam sensor signal input, and the other sensor simply isn't wired in at all. Wouldn't all conditions (i.e. oil pressure, etc)have to be completely ideal in order for this to be accurate? |
03-09-2008, 10:34 PM | #11 |
Former Vendor
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Join Date: Feb 2004
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It depends on what Hydra application you are using. The 04+ STi Hydras have fully closed loop AVCS control as do the 06+ WRX Hydras. This monitors the cam location and adjusts the duty cycle of the solenoid to compensate for oil temp and various viscosity oils. The older WRX Hydras use an open loop AVCS system which does not monitor cam position.
Honestly I ran our Time Attack WRX with open loop and never bothered to upgrade as I didn't really feel it was a major upgrade. The performance was every bit as good, I always use the same oil, and I always warm the engine so really I never noticed a difference. Thanks, Phil www.elementtuning.com |
03-14-2008, 10:09 PM | #12 |
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Well, I'm still having major issues with getting this car running again. Here are the steps that I took to diagnose and rectify this issue:
1) I tested for continuity through all three circuits that the cam sensor works on. That checked out. 2) I sent the hydra (without the harness) back to Andrew and he verified that it was in fact in working shape, but replaced the board nonetheless. 3) I removed the timing belt cover to inspect the rotating assembly. The belt had tension, did not skip any teeth, and the cams spun freely when the car was cranked over. 4) I removed the cam sensor and looked into the block with a flash light to verify that the rear half of the cam still spun to rule out a broken cam shaft. It spun freely. 5) We swapped cam sensors. 6) We tried the cam sensor on the passenger side of the motor 7) We plugged in the replacement hydra 8) Per Andrews advice, I removed the pin out of the hydra harness associated with the cam sensor wire, and re-crimped the connector, and re-inserted. 9) The cam sensor has a solid ground, and constant 12v power supply. None of the above worked, and I'm still not getting a cam sensor signal via the crank trigger test. A friend came over today, and we started checking for voltage on all the relevant circuits. We discovered that the cam signal wire is getting 12v, which we thought was odd. We then noticed that the cam sensor signal pig-tail wire was wired together with the AVCS 12v supply. According to the diagram that was given to us, B8 should be the 12V supply for the AVCS solenoids, and B9 should be the cam sensor signal wire. BOTH of these pigtails were wired into B8, and the wire from B9 runs directly into the WRX harness. This is how we received the harness from Hydra, and Tim Bailey himself did all of the wiring, per the instructions. So based on the above observations, I have a few questions: Should the cam sensor signal wire be sharing the same circuit as the 12V power supply for the AVCS solenoids? Can a square wave share the same path with a 12v source? Why was the cam sensor signal wire pinned into B8, and NOT B9 per the diagram given to us? Here is a scan of the diagram that was supplied to us from Hydra. Please bear in mind that the WRX harnesses were mislabeled (another source of frustration for us), and Tim had to spend some time verifying which were the appropriate harnesses, and circuits that were supposed to be utilized. That's the reason for the crossed out labels under the pin-out diagram. Last edited by BiggSean; 03-14-2008 at 10:19 PM. |
03-15-2008, 01:37 PM | #13 |
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Join Date: Sep 2005
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Vehicle:2005 6MT 35R Wagon Full STI drivetrain |
After some more diagnostics, and after some much appreciated help from Dom, I think that we have narrowed down what the problem was.
Leading from my hydra harness, there are two pig tails from B8. Both of these pigtails should have been used for the 12v power source for the AVCS solenoids. B9 should have been the cam signal input, however it did not have a pigtail. It simply had a wire that ran straight over to the wrx harness. When Tim wired the cam sensor, he erroneously hooked up the cam signal wire into one of the pig tails from B8 (12v constant). I can see how he made this error, since he was looking for a pigtail on B9, which wasn't there. B8 was directly next to it, so I could see how he could have mistaken it for B9. For the cam sensor power source, Tim had it connected to a 12v power source, where it should have been a 5v source. So essentially the cam sensor harness should have been getting: 5v/signal/ground But it was connected to: 12v/12v/ground I believe that the excess voltage may have toasted the cam sensor, but it still doesn't explain why the car was able to run for a month. Based on this configuration, the hydra never should have seen a cam signal, since the signal wire was hooked into a 12v power source, and not B9. After all of this discovery, I hooked up the cam sensor's power source to D4 (5v power supply), and quick tapped the signal wire to B9. Still no dice, the car won't start. Dom thought that perhaps the car somehow had the 2.0l cam sensor in the front of the car, and that's where it could have been getting a cam signal, but I verified that to not be the case. I'm using a full STI longblock, the only cam sensors in the motor are the right and left rear cam angle sensors that you would normally expect to find. The cam sensor harness was connected to the LH side cam sensor wire over the course of the month and half that it ran. In conclusion, I am completely baffled as to how the car ever ran for over a month and a half, and Tim and I agreed that he shouldn't quit his day job, and stick to tuning. My only possible recourse as I can see now, is to purchase a new cam sensor and try it again. P.S. Should there have been a pigtail leading from B9 for the cam signal input?? |
03-17-2008, 11:29 AM | #14 |
Former Vendor
Member#: 54918
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Ok let me start out by saying, forget everything you think you've done right, everything you think you did wrong, and just start over with a clean perspective.
You have a WRX and not a STi so you have to approach it that way in regards to the wiring diagrams. The 02-05 WRX uses a magnetic cam signal sensor that reads the cam sprocket. It only has a ground, one signal wire, and no power source. The USDM 04-07 STi uses a Hall Effect sensor that reads the camshaft itself. This means the sensor is powered via +12v and is tied into the fuel injector power source of the OEM STi engine harness. For both the WRX and the STi the Hydra takes the cam sensor signal to the small blue connector pin B9. The correct way to wire it is this: Your STi engine cam sensor connector has 3 wires: Pin 1 is +12v power directly from the engine harness Pin 2 is the cam signal wire that will go to the Hydra's small blue connector pin B9 Pin 3 is the ground The only wire that needs to make it back to the Hydra is Pin 2 the cam signal. You also need to change your map in the Hydra at select/settings/sensor and check the box "sync pull up enable" and make sure your triggers are setup correctly for the closed loop AVCS feedback. You can email me map and I can check it for you. Hope this helps. Thanks, Phil Grabow Director of Marketing Element Tuning (240)246.0302 http://www.elementtuning.com |
03-17-2008, 11:39 AM | #15 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 97352
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Location: Southern California
Vehicle:2005 6MT 35R Wagon Full STI drivetrain |
Quote:
In regards to the settings on the map, I'm not sure whether or not that has been setup correctly. What's your email address? Any ideas as to how the car was able to run for over a month with the signal wire connected to B8 (12v) in the first place? |
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03-17-2008, 02:16 PM | #16 |
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Subscribing.....I will be installing same thing soon
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03-17-2008, 04:42 PM | #17 |
Scooby Specialist
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Join Date: Sep 2005
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Vehicle:2005 6MT 35R Wagon Full STI drivetrain |
Been trying to get the car started this morning to no avail. I get a "slow crank" reading from the crank trigger test, and an occasional sputter/backfire. Tim thinks that the timing may have to be adjusted in order to resolve this problem, because the car was tuned previously without the cam signal sensor hooked up properly.
P.S. I made sure that the "sync pull up enable" feature was checked, and it was. |
03-18-2008, 10:53 AM | #18 | |
Former Vendor
Member#: 54918
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Vehicle:673 WHP Element Tuning Pro Comp Engine |
Quote:
email info at elementtuning.com Thanks, Phil |
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