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04-25-2004, 04:11 AM | #1 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 45091
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: Torrington, CT
Vehicle:2004 STI Silver (Stealth) |
STI and A stock. Now what do I do?
So I went out and won my first Novice AutoX (Dammit!). Now I'm in A stock (just read the rulebook, yawn) and don't have a clue as to what to do about understeer. I know about tire pressures and alignment (going to go to -1.5 fr and -1.0 rear, thoughts?) but is there anything else I can do to get the understeer under control? I know that I can change the front roll bar but not the rear but I don't know if that will do anything for the car. STU isn't an option right now as I don't have the moola.
Discuss amongst yourselves... John
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04-25-2004, 09:22 AM | #2 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 25243
Join Date: Sep 2002
Chapter/Region:
SCIC
Location: South Pasadena, CA
Vehicle:2006 Legacy Outback Blue |
Lots of applicable threads below .... and in the 2.5 Forum ... I believe the JDM STI has a thicker from sway bar ... they put a thinner one on for the US since they figure we can't drive ...
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04-25-2004, 05:33 PM | #3 | |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 26361
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region:
TXIC
Location: Sugar Land (Houston), Tx
Vehicle:My shenanigans are cheeky and fun |
Quote:
Bigger front sway bar will reduce ultimate front end grip but will make the car transfer better and keep a better camber curve. Shocks can help alot if you get them valved right, but since your a novice autoxer what will help most is to autox more. |
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04-25-2004, 06:52 PM | #4 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 21458
Join Date: Jul 2002
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: Boston, Massachusett
Vehicle:2011 Jeep Smurf Blue |
tires, tires, tires, nice sticky ones
in A stock you can run r compounds, something to consider.... but.. since you are tlaking about money (or lack there of) it may not be good. most likely you will need second set of wheels, then tires, and looking at $1500 or so.. p-rex |
04-25-2004, 07:29 PM | #5 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 51740
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: On an autox course in PA
Vehicle:2004 STi A-Stock #24 Same as my Coffee : Black |
Quote:
-Matt |
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04-25-2004, 08:40 PM | #6 | |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 26361
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region:
TXIC
Location: Sugar Land (Houston), Tx
Vehicle:My shenanigans are cheeky and fun |
Quote:
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04-26-2004, 09:18 AM | #7 | ||
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 51740
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: On an autox course in PA
Vehicle:2004 STi A-Stock #24 Same as my Coffee : Black |
Quote:
Quote:
Test... test... test... Or you could just wait for someone else to do the testing and hope A) they'll share the info B) the info they share is accurate. -Matt |
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04-26-2004, 10:26 AM | #8 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 33270
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: Boise, ID
Vehicle:2004 STi WR Blue |
Slow in, fast out. It is possible you're driving the car just right at one of your first events, but that doesn't seem to be usual in autocrossing. First, get a good alignment. Then work on driving. If you want to spend some money on the car, that's fine, but realize that you'll get more time from working on the driver.
I just did an autocross and rode in two other STis (who both ran novice last year). Their biggest problem was going too fast in the corners, leading to various degrees of scrubbing and pushing, which means they can't get back on the throttle coming out (they also didn't unwind and back off). I think corner exit is our car's huge advantage over the others, and if you're going too fast in the corner, you just push out on the exit which means you can't get on the throttle. This isn't the car, in my opinion -- heck, my loosy goosy Miata would do it if you went into a tight corner too fast. Number two for them would be looking ahead -- that cuts down on extrenuous steering inputs and exiting a corner pointing in the wrong direction. I'm trying to be helpful. I found my stock STi with a good alignment to be pretty nice. It didn't rotate, but it did nice drifts under power. The only time I recall it plowing was when the driver (me) screwed up and didn't slow down enough for the corner. Amazing how much times drop when you can go just slow enough in the slow parts and fast in the fast parts. Regarding alignment, do some searches. Didn't some of the national guys in WRXs run 0 toe front and some toe out in rear to help it rotate? Max front camber -- mine only made it to -1.2 stock. Obviously max caster. |
04-26-2004, 10:42 AM | #9 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 6713
Join Date: May 2001
Chapter/Region:
TXIC
Location: Houston TX USA
Vehicle:2007 Prius brown |
camber loss due to body roll:
as the wheels move up in the wheel wells, they get MORE negative camber. which is what happens to the outside tire which is what you want, yes? so why is there loss of negative camber due to body roll? |
04-26-2004, 10:44 AM | #10 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 51740
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: On an autox course in PA
Vehicle:2004 STi A-Stock #24 Same as my Coffee : Black |
Quote:
As for the stock alignment... can we change caster on a stock STi suspension? I was under the impression that it was not adjustable. -Matt (Still a scooby-noob) |
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04-26-2004, 11:05 AM | #11 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 51740
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: On an autox course in PA
Vehicle:2004 STi A-Stock #24 Same as my Coffee : Black |
Quote:
If you get it right... the car should loosen up on turn in... exactly where it needs it. I'm still testing these things but I believe the theory sound. I believe that some of the FWD stock tuning techniques (such as a smaller front bar) should NOT be used with the STi. The vehicle should be treated as a strut equiped RWD car for setup purposes. Adjustable front bar should be on the car next week... combined with an alignment this week (with weekend testing in between). We shall see... I'll have good benchmark drivers both weekends to help figure if an advantage was achieved. Then, of course, DC at the end of may. -Matt |
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04-26-2004, 11:07 AM | #12 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 738
Join Date: Jan 2000
Chapter/Region:
MWSOC
Location: Southern Ohio USA
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Quote:
Perfectly said. I found the plowing to be true this past Saturday on a fairly slow AutoX course with sweping 180degree turns. Lots of fun. Times kept coming down as I was trying to get in the corners SLOWER and get on the gas little earlier and full power. What really helped me was having an experienced Subaru RS owner show me this in my own car. He killed my time 2 months ago as he drove it way faster than me but really showed me the slow in fast out thing. (IMHO, is very hard to control as I want to go in hotter) Suggestion: full rear DCCD lock helped for me. (weather was 70 degrees and dry) Rally On, Davis |
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04-26-2004, 12:22 PM | #13 | |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 6713
Join Date: May 2001
Chapter/Region:
TXIC
Location: Houston TX USA
Vehicle:2007 Prius brown |
gotcha
would be interesting to do some testing to see at what point more front roll stiffness starts to hurt grip more than help. Im planning on getting that "geez" device so I can do stuff like that with my new toy. Quote:
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04-26-2004, 12:34 PM | #14 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 22100
Join Date: Jul 2002
Chapter/Region:
South East
Location: Durham, NC
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Quote:
--Kevin H. |
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04-26-2004, 12:47 PM | #15 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 25243
Join Date: Sep 2002
Chapter/Region:
SCIC
Location: South Pasadena, CA
Vehicle:2006 Legacy Outback Blue |
The Hotchkis bar is 1 inch ... 25.4 mm ... but hollow ... so equal to more like 23 mm. It helps ... but is no substitute for stiffer springs/coil overs ...
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04-26-2004, 12:59 PM | #16 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 9377
Join Date: Aug 2001
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1a- Don't forget this is supposed to be fun
1b- Evolution Driving School - or something like it 2- Race tires 3- Alignment 4- Shocks 5- Bigger front bar |
04-26-2004, 01:09 PM | #17 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 41410
Join Date: Aug 2003
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Vehicle:2006 987-120 Atlas Gray |
Quote:
http://www.selgp.com/sti_modifications.htm |
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04-26-2004, 01:13 PM | #18 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 51740
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: On an autox course in PA
Vehicle:2004 STi A-Stock #24 Same as my Coffee : Black |
Quote:
As for the bar I'm experimenting with? Its BIG... Its adjustable... -Matt |
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04-26-2004, 01:22 PM | #19 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 9377
Join Date: Aug 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by afpdl Bigger front sway bar will reduce ultimate front end grip I don't agree with this... -Matt Bigger front bar reduces steady state grip but increases transitional grip. most autox's these days are all about transitions. what you make up there is more than you might loose on the few sweepers. better damped shocks will help on the sti as it is underdamped to beging with |
04-26-2004, 01:23 PM | #20 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 51740
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: On an autox course in PA
Vehicle:2004 STi A-Stock #24 Same as my Coffee : Black |
Quote:
Good and interesting info! -Matt |
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04-26-2004, 01:28 PM | #21 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 51740
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: On an autox course in PA
Vehicle:2004 STi A-Stock #24 Same as my Coffee : Black |
Quote:
NOTHING... beats real world testing (with a good driver in a consistent eviroment... blah, blah, blah). BUT... if you still believe you're right you are MORE than welcome to run this other setup in Topeka... I won't stop you... in fact, I only encourage you to! -Matt |
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04-26-2004, 02:20 PM | #22 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 41410
Join Date: Aug 2003
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Vehicle:2006 987-120 Atlas Gray |
Quote:
Yes, we have that data, but we did not publish it at our site as we have to protect some part of the data that we use internally. It is just too easy for other vendors to grab data and run with it As you stated, it does not make much difference from the end result perspective, but it is the kind of data we actually need to do development for various combination of products. |
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04-26-2004, 02:41 PM | #23 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 51740
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: On an autox course in PA
Vehicle:2004 STi A-Stock #24 Same as my Coffee : Black |
Quote:
-Matt |
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04-26-2004, 02:54 PM | #24 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 41410
Join Date: Aug 2003
Chapter/Region:
MAIC
Vehicle:2006 987-120 Atlas Gray |
Thank you Matt, I appreciate
Last edited by FSelekler; 04-26-2004 at 03:18 PM. |
04-26-2004, 03:30 PM | #25 | |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 6713
Join Date: May 2001
Chapter/Region:
TXIC
Location: Houston TX USA
Vehicle:2007 Prius brown |
Quote:
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