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Old 12-11-2002, 01:30 AM   #1
Big R
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Default Is there any springs out there that "flatten" out the WRX?

It seems like all the lowering springs for the WRX lower the car but leave a fender gap in the front. ex. Eibach, Whiteline. H&R kind of do the trick but are too low to use with stock shocks. Does anyone have any ideas?
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Old 12-11-2002, 02:37 AM   #2
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Prodrives don't go very low but they make it flat. There was a post in here a couple of days ago with pictures.

Alex
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Old 12-11-2002, 04:31 AM   #3
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I purchased H&R Coilovers for the WRX from our wonderful sponsor, the Tire Rack. The car is flat as a board and low as you can go. No body roll whatsoever.

They were a bit pricey, though, and no they don't work with the stock shocks, because they don't use shocks. They come with the dampers already integrated. They are height adjustable though, so you can go from slammed to higher than stock.

Last edited by ascott; 12-11-2002 at 04:38 AM.
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Old 12-11-2002, 07:15 AM   #4
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Thumbs up

I have the Eibach Pro Kit and these work fine with the stock dampers. In fact they were designed to work with the stock dampers. They're rated just above the stock springs to give you a bit more aggressive handling. I installed just the fronts. The car sat level after installing them and it handles great too.
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Old 12-11-2002, 08:07 AM   #5
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Default Re: Is there any springs out there that "flatten" out the WRX?

Quote:
Originally posted by Big R
It seems like all the lowering springs for the WRX lower the car but leave a fender gap in the front. ex. Eibach, Whiteline. H&R kind of do the trick but are too low to use with stock shocks. Does anyone have any ideas?
My 2 cents is to go with the Prodrive if you are going to use your stock struts. Do a quick search and you'll find loads of pictures. I have them on my WRX with stock struts and they work great on street and track, and they also make the car look 'flat' from front to back.

Good luck,

Scott
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Old 12-11-2002, 09:41 AM   #6
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Whatever you do, don't follow the lead of DJ__Noose, I don't care what he proclaims about how the car handles, but sport springs in front and stock in the rear is a recipe for crap. If your intentions for this upgraded are purely appearance-based, I do not know what to tell you when it comes to bang for the buck. If you have a performance advantage in mind, the Prodrive springs are the way to go, but you should have atleast a +one wheel upgrade. Unfortunately the Prodrives are about 300 bucks. Goodluck.
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Old 12-11-2002, 09:44 AM   #7
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Prodrive levels the car.

I have even seen some people who use Eibachs and sit level as well.

I am using the Eibachs and the rear is just a hair lower then the front.
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Old 12-11-2002, 01:23 PM   #8
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When you say the front is a hair above the rear, you're not measuring from the top of the fender well I hope. The rear fender well is squared off slightly so on a perfectly level car, the rear will appear lower.
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Old 12-11-2002, 01:34 PM   #9
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FWIW, I took measurements after installing my Prodrive springs. There was exactly 14 3/8" from the center of the wheel to the highest point on the fender cutout, both front and rear. Doesn't get much more level than that...

Good luck,

SD
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Old 12-11-2002, 02:37 PM   #10
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Tein and whiteline, both are priced very well and both seem to acheive a considerable drop while mataining a nice level attitude.

I have both. and ready to ship on install.

thanks.

jeff@ilp
ilpperformance.com
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Old 12-11-2002, 08:22 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by jonmacs22
Whatever you do, don't follow the lead of DJ__Noose, I don't care what he proclaims about how the car handles, but sport springs in front and stock in the rear is a recipe for crap. If your intentions for this upgraded are purely appearance-based, I do not know what to tell you when it comes to bang for the buck. If you have a performance advantage in mind, the Prodrive springs are the way to go, but you should have atleast a +one wheel upgrade. Unfortunately the Prodrives are about 300 bucks. Goodluck.
Yeah, don't take my word for it. Take it from someone that doesn't have any suspension mods.
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Old 12-11-2002, 10:43 PM   #12
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I second dj_noose. The Eibach spring rates are just 8 pounds over the stock ones in front - less than a 5% difference. Obviously the stock fronts and the stock rears work well together, so having the fronts only a few pounds off won't make much of a difference. True, having higher spring rates in the front makes the car understeer - this is why there is slight understeer from the factory - and this will slightly exaggerate that, but only very slightly, and it's all correctable with an adjustable rear swaybar (what do you buy those for, anyway?). The only real difference between the front and rear suspension would be that the front is lowered an inch and the rear is at stock ride height. Again, no big deal. Sure, the car will handle better with a lower center of gravity, but 1 inch isn't a big deal in the rear since dropping the front lowers the part of the car with the most weight anyway (engine, trans).

All in all, the handling sacrifice from only doing the fronts is minimal. Unless you're a track or autox junkie, you won't be able to feel it much less take advantage of it. Better to finally be rid of that ugly front wheel gap, IMO. The fact that the ride remains almost as smooth as stock and the handling does improve quite a bit is just a plus. If you're worried about understeer, get an adjustable rear swaybar. But if you're really worried about understeer, you would already have one since the WRX comes out of the factory with understeer, in which case it is a moot point.

There you go, soft ride, better handling, and no more wheel gap. Don't rip on someone's setup without understanding it - after all, don't we all make fun of the Mustang V8 lovers who look at our cars and say "2 liter four cylinder, that can't be fast" right before we cream them to 60? They just ripped on our setup without understanding it, and man does it feel good to prove them wrong.
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Old 12-11-2002, 10:52 PM   #13
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Oh noose, if you get around to it I'd love to see pictures of your car and how it sits from a few different angles. Thanks!
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Old 12-11-2002, 11:04 PM   #14
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The only potential problem with sport springs mixed with stock springs, is that at one end of the car, you have a strut that is in a different operating range than the other strut at the stock end. This could result in unpredictable behavior at the limit, or in an emergency situation.

In terms of spring rates, the Eibachs aren't that far off the stockers, 'tis true.

I would be that for most situations, the handling wouldn't be at all bad. It's just not something that I would do, for the above reason.

But here's a question...the WRX has, and has struts designed, for suspension travel, which requires the attendant wheel gap. I know that some say it looks better lowered, but why mess with a fine handling stock car?

If you really want looks and great handling, go for a coilover package, or the pink STi package, which drops the car about an inch, and has handling to go with the looks.

Kevin
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Old 12-12-2002, 01:21 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by dj_noose


Yeah, don't take my word for it. Take it from someone that doesn't have any suspension mods.
So what do you call half a spring kit?
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Old 12-12-2002, 02:26 AM   #16
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How many of you with a "flat" car have actually measured from the rocker sill to the ground at each end of the car? Measuring the wheel wells isn't accurate because the wheel wells are shaped differently. That's just the way it is, and if you lower the car properly the rear is always going to look lower.

Lowering only one end of the car is most definitely not the right answer. Yeah, the spring rates might be pretty close to stock, but what have you done to the front roll center? What have you done to the roll couple of the car? What's that, you say you don't know? Eh, I'm sure it's not important, Subaru probably just threw the suspension together and didn't bother with any of that silly "tuning" stuff.

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Old 12-12-2002, 11:02 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Olsen
How many of you with a "flat" car have actually measured from the rocker sill to the ground at each end of the car? Measuring the wheel wells isn't accurate because the wheel wells are shaped differently. That's just the way it is, and if you lower the car properly the rear is always going to look lower.

Lowering only one end of the car is most definitely not the right answer. Yeah, the spring rates might be pretty close to stock, but what have you done to the front roll center? What have you done to the roll couple of the car? What's that, you say you don't know? Eh, I'm sure it's not important, Subaru probably just threw the suspension together and didn't bother with any of that silly "tuning" stuff.

Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan


Kevin
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Old 12-12-2002, 11:28 AM   #18
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Well said.
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Old 12-12-2002, 12:18 PM   #19
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Don't beat on noose too much now, I mean using half of the intended Eibach product might work, what does Eibach really know anyway.
Like I said before, your motivation for installing new springs should not be driven by looks alone.

Oh and noose, I am not quite sure where you got the idea that I do not have any suspension mods, my wagon has less than 800 miles on the odometer and I have a rear sway, rear sway links, and prodrive springs. So for the time I have had the car, almost a month, I think I am coming along just fine. No reason to get pissy just because people think your version of suspension improvement is less than intelligent. Remember people are just voicing their concerns.
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Old 12-12-2002, 02:06 PM   #20
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Default silly question

given the already horrible weight distribution of the wrx (~1800lb. front 1200lb. rear) which makes for a very forward center of gravity and the awfull understeer, wouldn't you want to keep the front a bit higher than the rear so as not to worsen its handling in corners and use anti-lift, camber/castor adjustments, and stiffened suspension to keep the front tires on the ground for grip?

wouldn't making the car look flat cause the center of gravity to shift even further to the front and make it worse?

just curious..
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Old 12-12-2002, 04:22 PM   #21
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The weight distribution on the stock WRX is far from horrible. Measuring from the center of the wheel base (the exact middle point between the two axles) the weights front and rear (according to Car and Driver and Road and Track which got within 12 pounds on their measurements) are ~1780lbs. front and ~1305lbs rear. BTW this is with oil in the engine and 2 gallons of fuel (about 5.5 pounds per gallon I believe) in the tank, just for reference. So, stock from the factory there is a 57/43 weight distribution, and thats pretty good until you get into true sportscar territory (as much as I love my WRX, all it takes is one ride in a low end true sportscar like a Boxster to remind me that it is a muscle/rally car, not a sportscar). So don't use "horrible weight distribution" when defining the stock WRX, that term just isn't accurate.

Second, I do have the Whiteline Anti-Lift, and I'm trying to stiffen up the front suspension to help keep the front tires on the ground for grip as you mentioned. So I believe even according to you that's on the right path.

Why are trans-am racecars raked forward even though they have a worse weight distribution than our modern WRX? Why do these cars that should handle worse pull 1.1's on the skidpad when the supposedley better stock WRX with the same quality tires won't ever hold more than .95? It's because the rake doen't matter that much; if anything it's important to get the heaviest part of the car low and use that as a pivot point for the rear for power oversteer. The rake won't make the weight distribution worse, it just changes its effect on handling, and often for the better.

So here I am saying that the importance of having the car 'flat' as measured at both ends of the sideskirts is fairly trivial. Yes, the wheel cutout is larger in front, but there is no problem in making the gaps even at the expense of unleveling the car. BTW, the car comes from the factory unleveled - it is tipped back slightly. Measure it and see. Ever wonder about that factory understeer? It ain't just in the swaybars...

All in all yes, I do know what I'm doing to the roll center of the car by lowering one end, and it is not neccessarily negative. And about your attitude that Subaru perfectly desings and tunes their suspensions, well, I offer here that they designed it just like they designed that flat wastegate plate behind the turbo, or that cat they decided to put in the uppipe, or the great suspension geometry that requires an Anti-Lift kit to fix, or 2 pot front and single pot rear brakes where the rest of the world gets better ones, or under the same flawless logic that led to the decision to outfit the car with the amazing RE-92 tire.

Yeah, don't touch your suspension, in fact, don't touch anthing on your WRX - it came absolutely perfect from the factory.

Anyone on this forum that tells you to mod the car (almost all 30+k of them) is full of bullsh**, right?

Same mentality, that's all I'm trying to point out.
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Old 12-12-2002, 05:17 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by stilesg57


Why are trans-am racecars raked forward even though they have a worse weight distribution than our modern WRX?
Aerodynamics

Quote:
Why do these cars that should handle worse pull 1.1's on the skidpad when the supposedley better stock WRX with the same quality tires won't ever hold more than .95?
RWD, power oversteer that snaps back and causes a peak reading.

Quote:
It's because the rake doen't matter that much; if anything it's important to get the heaviest part of the car low and use that as a pivot point for the rear for power oversteer.
On an AWD car? With an open front diff and an a 50/50 center? Not likely

Quote:
BTW, the car comes from the factory unleveled - it is tipped back slightly. Measure it and see.
For ground clearance and large bumps. All offroad vehicles are raked back slightly.

Quote:
And about your attitude that Subaru perfectly desings and tunes their suspensions, well, I offer here that they designed it just like they designed that flat wastegate plate behind the turbo, or that cat they decided to put in the uppipe
That extra cat reduces the emissions even more since it's right when the gases come out of the chamber. That and the TGV make the car a LEV.

Quote:
or the great suspension geometry that requires an Anti-Lift kit to fix
Don't need it on dirt.

Quote:
or 2 pot front and single pot rear brakes where the rest of the world gets better ones, or under the same flawless logic that led to the decision to outfit the car with the amazing RE-92 tire.
Americans wouldn't buy "an econobox" if the car if it was 30 grand. Add some upgraded brakes, some sticky rubber, some bulletproof 17" wheels, etc etc. And the car would be at least 27-28k. Shear economics.

Quote:
Yeah, don't touch your suspension, in fact, don't touch anthing on your WRX - it came absolutely perfect from the factory.
If you're entry level rallying it, yeah pretty much
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Old 12-12-2002, 08:02 PM   #23
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mtb_dude, you are approaching the WRX as an offroad rally car, and in that case yes, you're right about statements like:
"For ground clearance and large bumps. All offroad vehicles are raked back slightly."
"Don't need it on dirt."
"If you're entry level rallying it, yeah pretty much "

These statements are 100% correct, but you're approaching the question posed by this thread from the wrong angle. This thread is about lowering springs, so I think we can immediately assume the car in question is not going rallying anymore (at least it's certainly not its prime function). I'm not taking my WRX offroad, so I'm lowering it to improve my street performance. If I was rallying it, I wouldn't touch this area of the suspension, or at least would go in a different direction than Eibachs or Prodrives altogether. So by the very nature that we've decided to in some way lower the WRX, we're abandoning a lot of the car's incredible rally ability. Tragic? A little, but not really - with a few mods the dirt-road WRX will tear up the streets with sportscar level handling and supercar level acceleration. For someone like me who drives on the street and has no interest in a rally car (other than its street qualities - I know, it's two steps forward one step back), these are the performance realms that interest me. Obviously by the intent of this thread and the number of people out there with lowered WRXs, I'm not the only one either. If you like the dirt, good for you - you are currently driving the best car on the American market to do that with. But that isn't what this thread or my comments or anyone else's are about here. We're lowering for the asphalt, dirt and rally ability is therefore fairly irrelavent.

About some other comments:
I'm not familiar with how you test cars for lateral G's, but the way I test 'em (and I've tested several worked and raked RWD muscle cars and several different setups on my WRX) doesn't involve power oversteer or snapback at all. I'm curious about this, cause I'm wondering how you figure power oversteer and snapback play into this, what method do you use to test lateral G's?

On an AWD car with open front diff and limited slip rear (just like ours) Mitsu 3000GT's (and the clone Dodge Stealths) benefit greatly in quick, low speed (under 50mph) manuvers without losing high speed cornering by raking the car forward. FWIW, their weight distribution is 55/45.

The WRX doesn't need a precat to pass emissions. In fact, it doesn't need any cats to pass the federal emissions standards for how much junk it spits out the tailpipe (the only reason it won't pass in this situation is because of the visual check where it must be confirmed that cars have the factory cats in place). So basically the WRX burns so clean that it doesn't even need cats to meet standards. But one is required by federal law, so on it goes. The other one and the precat in the uppipe (possibly the worst design on the car) are meant to get the car into LEV status. This is far from essential on any other performance car (including the ones the WRX matches and beats in acceleration), but Subaru felt it important so as not to alienate their enviro-friendly customer base (ever wonder why they don't have these in Japan and Europe? It's primarily because the WRX has a performance enthusiast customer base, not an environmentalist customer base like here in the states). So at the price of being politically correct we have the worst design feature on the car. I'm still waiting to hear the explaination for the design genius behind the flat plate wastegate design...

Enough ranting, I'll shut up. I just want to convey that noose isn't as off as some people on this board have made it seem.
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Old 12-13-2002, 10:48 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by stilesg57

About some other comments:
I'm not familiar with how you test cars for lateral G's, but the way I test 'em (and I've tested several worked and raked RWD muscle cars and several different setups on my WRX) doesn't involve power oversteer or snapback at all. I'm curious about this, cause I'm wondering how you figure power oversteer and snapback play into this, what method do you use to test lateral G's?
Most magazines do squeak out extra tenths of a G with RWD cars by that very method. I'm not talking opposite lock skid and SNAP, but they let it get out a few inches and then catch it and that's recorded as the peak G force. It's a grey area in my mind, but it makes sense in a racetrack setting since that's pretty much how you get a RWD car around a track fast .

As far as the offroad onroad arguement. You seemed to totally bash the car and I just wanted to remind you that despite the fact that we love this car on tarmac, the real beauty of this car is on dirt. Don't ask "Why did Subaru put this cruddy suspension on" when it's obvious it has a different purpose in mind.
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Old 12-13-2002, 07:36 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by stilesg57
Oh noose, if you get around to it I'd love to see pictures of your car and how it sits from a few different angles. Thanks!
I will do this as soon as I can. The weather this week has really been nasty and there really hasn't been good conditions to take pictures. I have to borrow a better camera from a friend. Mine takes... not so good pics.

As far as other suspension mods... 1) STi replica strut bar, 2) Whiteline 24mm adjustable rear swaybar (set on 22mm), 3) Kartboy solid endlinks

And thanks to the guys that are non carbashing
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