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11-08-2012, 03:54 PM | #1 |
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Not tuned for e85 but is there a safe ratio to add e85 with 91 oct?
Hey guys, I drive a stage 2 2011 sti. Dp and accessport. My car is not tuned for e85 but I heard it was safe to add e85 as long as you put the right ratio or just not too much. Is this perfectly safe without any damage to the car? Does anyone do this? I heard it can give you a Lil more power and the ratios I was hearing are maybe 60% 91 Oct and 40% e85 or maybe 50-50. If anyone can please give me more info I'd appreciate it I wanna give this a try.
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11-08-2012, 04:27 PM | #2 | |
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Quote:
It will give you absolutely no more power because the car is not tuned (ie timing and boost are not tuned) for e85. You can make significantly more power on e85 because you can run more timing and boost due to the great knock protect the fuel allows. As far as adding e85 to your tank it's best not to due it. If I remember correctly I've read a 30% e85 70% petrol blend would be considered safe, but even then I'd really want to log the car to make sure the fuel trims aren't all out of wack. Honestly I don't think it's worth it though. There are inherent risks in messing with a new fuel blend that you are not correctly tuned for, and the benefits (more knock protection) really wont do much of anything as long as you are properly tuned for the fuel you currently run. If you want to run e85 I highly recommend it, just do it the correct way. |
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11-08-2012, 04:29 PM | #3 |
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This really belongs in engine management forum.
The stock tune can take a fair amount of E85 before running out of ECU adjustment range. However, a basic stage 2 will run out of injector and / or fuel pump before it runs out of ECU adjustment range. so will lean out even if the ECU is given time to adjust fuel trims for the new mix in the tank. Some of it also depends on how the car is tuned: There are multiple load ranges that use different fueling trims. These trims also get applied to the open loop fueling map. (For example: If the ECU is adding 5% in closed loop fueling, it will add 5% to the open loop map at that load range too.) Some tuners will adjust these ranges so that the highest load range is so high, you never get there in closed loop, so there are never any adjustments to the parts of the open loop map that people are in most. If this is the case, you can cause real issues with running lean on just a small% mix of E85. However, if a tuner leaves these load ranges reasonable, then you can add 20% or more E85, and the ECU will automatically adjust for that (if there is enough fuel pump and injector to do so.) So, IF you have larger injectors + fuel pump, you need to confirm with your tuner before you go adding E85 to your current tune. If you don't have larger injectors + pump, you definitely don't want to go adding E85, as a Stage 2 is usually very close to maxing out the fuel system. Last edited by Concillian; 11-08-2012 at 04:35 PM. |
11-08-2012, 05:21 PM | #4 | |
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Quote:
A splash for octane boosting is cool, but not 60/40, not even 80/20. I'm talking like 97/3! 105 octane (e85) will boost the crap out of 93 in a flash, no need on the regular. I would only do this if I had a track day or was beating the piss out of her. |
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11-08-2012, 05:57 PM | #5 |
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Not sure about adding E85 to bump 91 or 93, but by adding race gas you'd be gaining thermal stability (always a good thing in a race/stressful enviornment) and that's about it. Now if your car was tuned to take advantage of racegas, that would be a different matter. But it would be kind of silly to spend the money on a racegas tune for a stock car where you can put the money in going stage 2 and have safe, permanent gains.
edit: Errrr, you're already stage 2...soooo I guess upgrade your fuel system and get a proper tune so you can properly take advantage of the E85. Or if you're on the quest for more power put the money towards a new turbo...which will still require a new fuel set-up sooo I dont know what to suggest |
11-08-2012, 06:56 PM | #6 |
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Cool thanks for all those who replied. Yea ill just wait and save up for my e85 tune along with the injectors and fuel pump.
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11-08-2012, 08:23 PM | #7 |
Former Vendor
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You can run up to 20%, However, Its not going to add any power.
C |
11-08-2012, 10:55 PM | #8 |
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Yeah I've been running 20% E85 for the last couple of years with no problems. The car loves it.
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11-08-2012, 11:52 PM | #9 |
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Last edited by NSFW; 11-09-2012 at 03:13 PM. |
11-09-2012, 03:38 AM | #10 |
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So Clark and nsfw, you've both run stage2 91oct ap ots maps on 20% e85?
What was the idc? Afr? |
11-09-2012, 03:13 PM | #11 |
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Nope. Edited accordingly.
There's no E85 in my area, but I'm confident enough in my understanding of the chemical properties to have no doubt that it'd be a waste of time to mix it in without retuning. |
11-09-2012, 03:17 PM | #12 |
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It just seems like something weird to try on a stage2 car where the injectors are already maxed out.
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11-09-2012, 03:24 PM | #13 | |
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Quote:
Because on a stock tune, go ahead, mix in 20% E85, the ECU will adjust and you have room on injectors, it's all good... But on a stage 2 tune that is close to maxing the stock fuel system already? Not a good idea to mix in E85. This is the point I thought I made in post #3, but I guess it was TL,DR. |
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11-09-2012, 03:44 PM | #14 |
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My advice is not to waist time, I agree with the other posters, unless you tune for E85, theres no real gains to it outside of it being cheaper than premium fuel. When you run strait e85 is a different story.
I can tell you that on my tune (1000cc injectors, Stock vf52 turbo, intake, fmic, and 3" turboback catless exhaust) I had my tuner do both an E85 tune and 93oct tune. Same boost levels (20psi becuase I didnt replace my BCS maxed it out at 20) the E85 had 45 more wheel horse power and 40 more wheel torque just by running e85. This is just my opinion, i do not reguard this as fact haha. |
11-09-2012, 04:24 PM | #15 |
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The only way I could see it increasing power was if you were consistantly pulling timing. And if you tune is pulling timing on a regular basis, you need better tuning, mixing E85 would only be a band aid fix.
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11-12-2012, 11:07 AM | #16 |
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Dont bother - get set up specifically to run E or throw a meth kit on top of your 91 - or just stick to your piss water mapping.
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11-12-2012, 11:52 AM | #17 |
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It's really not great at all for adding power vs what you're tuned for; for lowering your knock threshold, yes, it is good. Again, a 'splash' will raise your effective octane level, make you a little bit safer if you're beating on your motor under tough conditions. (Track, etc.)
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11-15-2012, 03:56 PM | #18 |
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11-15-2012, 04:00 PM | #19 |
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11-15-2012, 04:43 PM | #20 |
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It sure can. You can use up to 20% without to much trouble. Unless your fuel already has 10 or 15% alcohol in it. There is a label on the pump.
Just dont get carried away with adding to much. Dont expect power gains unless, the tune/setup is octane octane deficient. Then, if it stops the knock it worked. If the car is in tune and not detonatiing now, Then adding the E85 wont help at all. C |
11-15-2012, 04:54 PM | #21 |
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I think the fuel here is very borderline (especially the winter mix) and I have been investigating different ways to bump the octane a point or two. Don't usually notice any problems but sometimes it can be a little "surgy" like the ECU is working too hard to keep everything happy. I had heard that up to a couple gallons of E85 would be OK and give a boost to the octane. I would be perfectly happy with 93 gas if anyone had it around here anymore.
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11-15-2012, 05:23 PM | #22 |
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Why don't you just flash a 91 octane map see if there is anyone local with a tactrix cable or buy a cobb ap they have 91 oct maps
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11-16-2012, 07:25 AM | #23 |
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I run a gallon of e85 on a full tabk on very hot track days for knock protection. Butt dyno tells me nothing changed. Better safe than sorry
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11-16-2012, 09:16 AM | #24 |
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Right now, I'm just looking for options for a small octane boost. Car has a factory tune, so should already be set for 91 gas but I think the gas is questionable. I plan some mods in the future, but not right now.
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11-16-2012, 09:32 AM | #25 |
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Yeah, I'm not really looking for a HP boost right now, just a way to make my fuel a little better. And when I do start upgrading, I will have already done some testing.
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