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Old 08-16-2000, 03:17 PM   #51
AlphaDog
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There is no greater good than giving people the ability to provide for themselves. Let people keep their money, do not abandon the principle of individuality and freedom, and the world will be a better place. No one who was ever given anything appreciated it as much as the person who worked for it. That goes for a $20,000 Impreza, or $400,000 yacht, or $2,000,000 Home. God bless anyone who has those things. In America, they have earned them.

And KooshDogg, I sincerely hope you are being sarcastic when you equate a small military as a means of keeping the peace. If you are anti-military as you claim, you are anti hundreds of thousands of men who have died to give you the freedom you are enjoying on this board, speech.

We cannot ever pursue freedom abroad by surrendering it at home. Bush isn't the second coming, Gore isn't the Anti-Christ, but know this, Bush favors the type of government our forefathers founded, Gore favors the type Karl Marx envisioned. Throughout history, which one has proven itself to work better.
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Old 08-16-2000, 03:23 PM   #52
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"That is what America is all about, social mobility. In most of the world if you don't have money you never will."

Colin, that is true for EVERY nation, INCLUDING America. America is all about social mobility, yes, and the chances of making it big here are more than other nations, yes, but you have to understand things like the self-fulfilling prophecy, glass ceilings, and even discrimination to understand that not all those who work arduously with immense determination succeed in ANY society, including this one. any way you say it, you cannot possibly believe that everyone who works hard will succeed, in places including the U.S.
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Old 08-16-2000, 03:25 PM   #53
Paul UK
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What I've noticed is that throughout the western world the polital parties are becoming less right or left wing and fighting to occupy the middle ground.

Generally have to agree with cacophany though.

As somebody famous once said " Democracy is the worst system of government ever invented ................. except for all the others"

[This message has been edited by Paul UK (edited August 16, 2000).]
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Old 08-16-2000, 03:25 PM   #54
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I think it is funny how every liberal says how bad the republicans are.But cant find anything to bash them factually they fill there defense with half truths like saying chaney voted against head start programs but forget to say that the dumocrats filled the bill with special interest bennies for their friends.
And if everything is so bad who has been running the con gress for 40 years.
Plus look at some of the representatives of the dumo party.fharacon,jackson,kennedys
Enough said.thanks for the soap box
Give Reason a chance and dont believe the liberal lie.
Ask Egore how much money he has in the Tobacco business or has he fixed the slum apartments he owns.
The great deceivers Satan,Media,Dumocrates
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Old 08-16-2000, 03:35 PM   #55
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Quote from KooshDogg:
"to help everyone, for the greater good of humanity"

This is what Pol Pot of the Khmer Rouge had in mind when he killed all the doctors and teachers in Cambodia. He did it for the greated good of humanity. Our country is based on individual rights, not the "greater good"
 
Old 08-16-2000, 03:35 PM   #56
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hehe, i think ive had more posts for this thread than any other thread on this board..

ok, lemme rephrase what i said about being anti-military, i am against the development of weapons of war that encourage arms races amongst nations worldwide, and am against the public funding of private grievances between nations, like, for example, a bombing run on Chechnya, hehe

now, i am not against the MILLIONS of soldiers worldwide, especially those of the US armed forces, who fought to defend their ideals or their beliefs against tyrannical objectives, im specifically talking about weapons, not soldiers, not individual people, but weapons, and you know as well as i do that fighting in wars today is not like it was half or even a quarter of a century ago, frankly the bureaucrats just need to press a few buttons to launch ICBM's and wipe out thousands of people... i have the utmost respect for those who have fought in the armed forces for good causes, my own stepdad served in vietnam, but i do not support anyone who believes that the proliferation of weapons and military power is a better method of keeping the peace
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Old 08-16-2000, 03:44 PM   #57
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hehe, ok, Pol Pot murdered many people for "the greater good of humanity," and im sure the democrats accepted some soft money "for the greater good of humanity," so what? i never said we should kill anybody, hehe, obviously my opinion of the greater good is different from his

i really dont see how you can say that individual rights arent a factor of the overall picture, the greater good, hehe, think thats just a miscommunication so chill
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Old 08-16-2000, 03:59 PM   #58
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You know what I think would do American Democracy a great deal of good? Abolishing the Democratic vs. Republican ordeal. Partitioning politics in governing a nation is not a wise idea. People do have different beliefs, and thus why voting for leaders represents (in theory) the aspirations of the majority. However... making people fit into one of two parties (excepting the Independents, thank God) in order to make a "respectable" vote is ludicrous. If you ask me, it negates the entire concept of a Democracy.

People should state their beliefs when running for Office. State their goals realistically. To hell with one vs. the other, or pleasing the moneymakers. It comes down to the people, in the long run. Only elected officials and political students will care, seriously, about what happened "back then" when it's all said and done, with whomever in Office. The people care about NOW. And hopefully about LATER.

America's a great nation. A great concept.
It just doesn't execute its true intentions.

-S2-
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Old 08-16-2000, 04:01 PM   #59
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I vote for myself: Homer Jay Simpson as President! Wooo Hooo! I make donut and beer brakes mandatory!
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Old 08-16-2000, 04:01 PM   #60
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I COMPLETELY agree with Siper, hehe, and NO not just cuz hes also a former honda owner hehe, partisan politics tear all nations apart, and as i said both sides have problems (as well as the little guys, reform party, independents, etc.) but hey, until someone is willing and able to make such a monumental change in the system, we gotta put up with it, and such is the purpose of this discussion
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Old 08-16-2000, 04:15 PM   #61
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"...looks like all those republican taxpayers are gonna pave my way for the presidency for a true democracy, SWISH!"

Koosh, somewhere at this moment, one of our founding fathers is rolling over in his grave. How could you have fooled yourself into thinking that your utopian vision of a socialistic hell could be considered democracy?

"aint nobody out there including myself who wants to pay hard-earned cash for the stupidity of others, but i really feel that the long-term positive effects of such investments outweigh the negatives, you cant take money with you, and you must help even those who are ignorant and foolish, and those who make mistakes stupider than you can imagine, to help everyone, for the greater good of humanity.."
Can someone, ANYONE please explain to me how a free handout can be considered an "investment?" It's not an investment, rather it reinforces a negative behavior. In this country, people are taught to rely on the government for everything... It makes me ill to think how far we as a country have strayed from our ideals. Americans were, by nature, self reliant individuals. People had brains, and could function ON THEIR OWN.

The US has become less like a country and more like a gigantic life support system for a country full of idiotic dependents.

If anything can save the US, it'd have to be some sort of benevolent dictatorship.

PS. Anyone got any ideas how I could get that position?
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Old 08-16-2000, 04:20 PM   #62
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How about; NONE OF THE ABOVE!
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Old 08-16-2000, 04:21 PM   #63
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Does anyone know if you can turbocharge a MY99RS?

he he

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Old 08-16-2000, 04:23 PM   #64
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hehe, come on now, your taxes really are just an investment from a purely economical standpoint. if you think about it, you're simply a customer of the U.S., the president is the salesperson, and if you really have a problem with what he's selling, you can just go somewhere else as you please with relative ease

hehe, havent you people seen star trek? cant we just be more like the federation? hehe with a utopian socialistic hell for everyone?


i REALLY hate RS6000 workstations, im gonna go have myself a 12" philly cheesesteak now, hehe
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Old 08-16-2000, 04:38 PM   #65
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SFsube, yes you can LOL
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Old 08-16-2000, 05:05 PM   #66
Overtime
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All this stuff is just my opinion, but it is backed up with whatever tables and facts I can dig up...

The problem with taxes is that from an economical point of view, the tax income has to be relatively close to government income in order to maintain the facade of "fiscal responsibility".

In reality, if one were to cut back taxes AND cut back government spending, we'd be looking at a short-term recession. Supply side economics have no real basis in fact. It *seems* to make sense, but when you think about it, most recessions are far too psychological for people to act rational all the time.

If it were possible to just deficit spend our way to kingdom come, we'd do it. But the problem is that in times of excess (ie: now) cutting back on government spending will curb the economic boom, which no one wants to do (at least not in an election year).

What Bush wants to do is try to cut back on taxes to give even more money to an economy which has too much money already. Our disposable incomes are skyrocketing and Dubya wants to make the inevitable recession even worse by making LESS government? Why not let the economy run its course and do what you can to defend against the recessions, because they will come. We haven't the means or planning to cut off any source just yet.

The whole idea of complaining about taxes is ludicrous anyway. Remember: death and taxes and speeding tickets...

EDIT: BTW, I'm 17, and there's no way in hell I'm going to fight in a war at this stage in my life. You want to go to war because some Arab isn't getting what he thinks is his "just due", later. I don't want to die unless something is worth dying for.

EDIT #2: If you watch Survivor, please move to Mexico or something. That show represents what we need to stop in society. Get a life...or better yet, get a car.

[This message has been edited by Overtime (edited August 16, 2000).]
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Old 08-16-2000, 05:39 PM   #67
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Exclamation

I'm constantly suprised at how many people there are in this country that are fed up with the two dominant parties (R&D) and dont consider the Libitarian party... is it just a matter of unawareness? If so, I implore you to check out www.lp.org. This is where you will find the only path of govornment that does not increase the size of govornment, or continue to reduce our individual freedoms.

Or better yet, go straight here: http://www.lp.org/quiz/ and suprise yourself!

*disclaimer* I do not intend to tell anyone how they should beleive and apologize if I come off that way, I simply think more people need to think for themselves.
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Old 08-16-2000, 05:50 PM   #68
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Gore... Someone explain why in my right mind would I want to vote for someone who claims to have invented the Internet??? Why would I vote for the fool who stood by and defended Clinton, then magically claims he's better???

Anyway it's already been said, I am glad I am a Scooby Owner after seeing the number of Bush supporters here!

Sorry I am a White, Male, former US Marine... There is NO reason I should ever support such a fool as Gore!

Mike
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Old 08-16-2000, 06:58 PM   #69
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Thumbs up

Hey, this is pretty cool. A 77 post politics thread that has been very civil.

All I have to say is this. The president does not just appoint Supreme Court justices. He and his party appoint everyone with any power in all the agencies that make our lives miserable. E.g., EPA, NHTSA and Dept. of Transportation.

Let's see. Al Gore says in his Earth in the Balance that (a) the internal combustion engine is the enemy of mankind, and (b) he wants higher gas prices to destroy the automobile.


Therefore if you love cars, you cannot vote for Gore. If you don't love cars, why the heck are you on this message board?

Also, if you want to calculate how much you pay in taxes, go here. I know it's accurate, because I coded it.

[This message has been edited by R Diamond (edited August 16, 2000).]
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Old 08-16-2000, 07:25 PM   #70
Matt
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Question

Best country:

Canada

Although my family comes from the UK (mom) and Ukraine (dad).

However, my soon to be home will be Key West. And I'll get them to secede from the US again, just like in the Regan era.

Harry Browne for president. Nader sucks, Bush is old money, and Gore needs to listen to some Cypress Hill and smoke a fatty. But I'm a cynic, so I don't like anyone, I like my nerdy UNIX biosphere, freedom, my Subaru, and the ability to what I want, when I want, so long as I'm ready to accept any consequences. Bla bla bla bla. Besides, why can we live like South Park?
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Old 08-16-2000, 07:28 PM   #71
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Hello,

Richard! I was wondering how long it would take you to chime in You still haven't answered my last e-mail on this very subject.

What's wrong with higher gas prices to encourage buyers and manufacturers to go for more efficient cars? What a horrible idea, eh? Imagine ford and GM having to make engines that didn't result in a fleet average of something like 20 mpgs. Imagine more than 50 hp/liter. What a horrible world that would be.

I think his support of higher gas prices is a plus for Gore. He's a little extreme, but the legislative branch will keep him in check.

What really bothers me is the whole "shrink the government" republican attitude. It's totally naive. Whatever shrinking you do federally will be replaced 50 times at the state level. Or thousands of times at the local level. So instead of one central agency or whatever, you end up with many many agencies all doing the same function but doing it differently. Ugh. What a stupid idea. By trying to shrink the government, you make it bigger.

I have a better idea. Increase the size of the federal power and reduce the state jurisdiction. Too bad federalism survives, though. That will never happen.

BTW, Richard, I checked your tax calculator thingy. Under a flat tax, the government would go broke I'd pay 5 digits less in taxes under the flat tax. Err, umm... so where is the money going to come from? I don't get it. Magic? Then I plugged in an income less than how much I'd save, and it still shows a savings. So basically, the flat tax is out of the question for the next couple decades until the entire government structure, at all levels from local to federal, gets revamped.

Huh. And here I thought y'all were pushing it for implementating in the near future

Joel
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Old 08-16-2000, 07:35 PM   #72
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Hello,

But don't get me wrong... I don't like Gore either and I don't want to waste my vote on a 3rd party So what to do? One choice is vote republican just because I'm a selfish bastard and I want to pay less taxes. On the other hand, God fear what would happen if a supreme court justice needed replacing. Ugh. We'd lose all sorts of personal freedoms and live in a dangerous world...

So I could vote for the dems. And while what I said above was fine and dandy, I don't see CARB and the like going away any time soon under Gore... Plus, bone up on some Leiberman opinions in the newspaper... I'm not sure what Gore was thinking!

Joel
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Old 08-16-2000, 09:48 PM   #73
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hehe, its an interesting conflict i face personally, i love cars with a passion, maybe even moreso than computers and even women, hehe, and i love motorcycles too, but i am certainly in favor of higher gas prices (DOWN WITH SUV'S) because i really would like to see a cleaner, greener planet... does this mean im the Greenpeace loving pot-smoking teenager that you might think i am? hehe, no, but by the time my kids grow up to be my age, i would like them to live in a world where they dont have to worry about global warming or heavy industrial pollution so much as we do today, a large portion of which comes from environmentally-hazardous automobiles

i really wouldn't mind higher gas prices, we really don't have it that bad (just ask the UK guys hehe)... if higher gas prices for everyone mean less instances of Soccer Mom Suzy running around with her 6000 lbs 12MPG Excursion and a boiling hot cup of coffee at 80 mph... then SO BE IT, hehe i certainly won't miss those lumbering dinosaurs hogging our streets and sucking our gas

i think its jus another example of how gore's thinking is simply ahead of its time, right now people own and buy more cars than they ever did at any point in history, and most people don't know how polluted the environment is, so we really don't have to worry about it that much for a while, and besides that i dont think that if gas prices raise it will be that bad, it'll just force car manufacturers to come out with more appealing ways of presenting alternative fuel sources (like that natural gas dodge charger concept as opposed to, say, a toyota prius)
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Old 08-16-2000, 09:58 PM   #74
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OK, now that I am done reading all of the posts with this I feel the need to chime in on a few topics.

The defense budget is absolutely awash in non-military spending and if you don't think so you need to do some real research and wake the he11 up. Even according to the Washington Post (a quaint liberal rag) almost 30% of the defense budget goes to non-military activities. If this is what a liberal media outlet is willing to admit too can you imagine what the number really is!!!

I can give you one example from personal experience. The Seabee battalion I was attached to spent a month revamping a PLAYGROUND at a public school. While this is a nice thing to do I still can't justify the 4 MILLION we spent in terms of materials, equipment rentals, labor, etc.etc.etc that went into this. There is also 22 million in the current budget to study the nocturnal activities of turtles near a planetarium. I ask again how is this defense spending.

To fix the problems of the current budget first we need to institute a little truth in funding and figure out where the money is really going. Until we do this we will never be able to eliminate the corruption rampant in our governments.

Next topic.

I am absolutely sick of being vilified for being white, male, Christian, 18-50, and willing to work. The American public is being taught that if you are black you are owed something, if you are female you are owed something; if you are lazy you are owed something.......

THE ONLY GROUP OWED A DAMN THING IS THE AMERICAN INDIANS!!!!

How am I the bad guy because I am willing to serve my country, go to college on a GI Bill, and then work hard to help my family get ahead. YES, I SAID MY FAMILY! As in I take care of my own. I am not about to ask someone else to do it.

Which bring us to our next topic.

This idea that raping the rewards of hard work to fund "social programs" is an investment is crap. If you care about your family you take care of your own. You don't keep them at arms length and shuffle them off to a state hospital for someone else to tend to when it is not convenient for you. The truth about social programs is that when the federal government gets involved in almost anything the cost skyrockets and the results stink. Can you say federal education reforms? These have left million of students illiterate.

Please stop stealing my money from me and I will take care of my self and my family.

There is so much more I could get into but this is a nice start.
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Old 08-16-2000, 10:26 PM   #75
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The only vote I care to cast at the moment it that the one president that needs to take action - Imprezident - kill this OT thread that is an utter waste of resources on this board.

You guys ever here of USENET? USE IT, if you still feel compelled to spew your political views.

Your continued OT political BS is an abuse of this board and the people who work hard to keep it running and ask that you avoid completely OT posts.
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