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Old 12-29-2005, 01:54 AM   #1
Janq
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Post OT LTC/CHP types: 'Gun Versus Edged Weapons'

As reported via The Gun Zone:

Facing an Edged Weapon...
Sharp Defense
It's not always good juju to take a Gun to a Knife Fight

The average American displays an interesting dichotomy in their perception of various weapons. While most people in our society understand, and often even overestimate, the power of a handgun to injure or kill, far fewer have been inculcated with a similar respect toward edged weapons. Perhaps this is due in part to the extremely unrealistic portrayal of firearms' power in the media, or perhaps it's because knives are so common as tools in our everyday life. Whatever the cause, anyone serious about defending him or herself with a firearm should spend time preparing to counter a knife attack.

Ever been threatened ib close quarters by an edged weapon?If you picture a knife attack as a telegraphed overhand swing as the bad guy lunges toward you, you're in for a rude surprise. Knife attacks can be quiet, bloody and quick... if the attacker is really good, you might sustain a fatal wound before you feel the cut, or even before you realize a knife is involved at all.

The first step in developing a defensive strategy against an attacker armed with a knife is to understand how a knife is used to kill and injure. In brief, a knife can hurt you in one of three ways:

1. Mechanical: It can be used to sever muscles and connective tissue that will prevent your body from working. Serious knife people practice cuts that will disassemble whole muscle groups or disconnect the tendons you need to make your hands and arms move.
2. Hydraulic: A knife can be used to sever arteries and veins, lowering blood pressure and eliminating oxygen transfer to the muscles or brain. A good cut on the carotid artery (located on the side of the neck) can cause unconsciousness almost instantly, with death following within moments.
3. Electrical: Knives can cut nerves that transmit your brain's instructions to your limbs, making it impossible for you to move or feel with the affected areas.

Even a small knife can cause all three types of damage, often simultaneously. A blade as small as 3-inches can reach the heart of an adult male, and knives as small as one-inch can easily sever major arteries. Yes, that Swiss Army knife in your pocket is fully capable of causing some massive trauma if used skillfully.

As you're starting to see, a knife can be a formidable weapon in the hands of a trained fighter, or even a determined novice. In fact, many people trained with a knife will categorically state that within arm's reach they would much rather face a gun while armed with a knife than the reverse. So what can you, the lawfully armed citizen, do when confronted with a knife?

Create Distance
The advantage of a gun over a knife is simple... a gun can kill and injure at a distance. That distance is usually governed more by the shooter's ability than the terminal ballistics of the firearm, since most defensive handguns are potentially lethal out to at least a hundred yards, and generally much more. In contrast, a person armed with a knife must close with his victim and make contact to cause injury. To successfully defend against a knife attack, you must take full advantage of the gun's ability to engage targets at a distance. Distance is your best ally in defending against a knife.

Gaining distance can be done in a number of ways. The one that people usually try is backpedaling away from the attacker, a tactic that's almost guaranteed to fail. Almost any attacker, moving forward, can outdistance any defender running backwards.



Although an intuitive reaction, moving backward is not the right tactic. Instead, a quick lateral move, ninety degrees from the direction of the attack, offers the best option for gaining much-needed distance. It lets you keep your eyes and hands toward the attacker, and forces him to change the direction of his attack, giving you time to gain more distance.

In addition to gaining distance from your attacker, you need to gain distance from the knife itself. While knife blocking techniques are many and varied, the one that's the most reliable for the novice is a hard, swinging open hand strike with the weak hand, aimed at the attacker's knife arm between the wrist and elbow. This block is delivered with an open hand to maximize the chances you will contact the arm, attempting to drive the arm across the attacker's body and the knife away from you.



Maintain Control of Your Weapon
The Speed RockWhile the debate rages on about sighted fire versus point shooting, this is one situation where the decision is easy. It's a fatal mistake when facing a knife to draw the gun and extend it toward the attacker, because at close range, a skilled knife user will attack the hand(s) holding the gun and disarm you. Instead, you must become adept at drawing and firing the gun with the weapon held close to your body, preferably on your strong side near your ribs. There are various methods for firing in this position, with the best known being the Speed Rock.



n the Speed Rock, the weak hand is brought up to deliver a defensive block, while the strong side foot takes a small step to the rear. While stepping, the gun is drawn and brought to the side, near the lower ribs. With a semiautomatic, some people will cant the top of the pistol away from the body to prevent fouling the slide in recoil.

One unpleasant reality of defending against a knife is the strong possibility that you'll be cut. If you use the weak hand to block so you can gain time to draw your weapon, you decrease the risk of a cut to your torso or neck. While a cut anywhere can be serious, most of the major arteries and all the blood-filled organs are located in the torso, and those arteries and organs are the areas most vulnerable to a knife attack, and most likely to cause death if stabbed or cut.



Good News?
Shoot the attacker until he knows that he's been shot! The good news is that after moving laterally, blocking the first thrust, performing a perfect draw, executing a textbook Speed Rock and firing a perfect shot, you can still be killed by your attacker! More than one victim has suffered fatal stabs or slashes from an attacker they just inflicted a fatal wound on themselves. The reason for this is simple-the attacker has momentum, and that momentum is probably directed toward you. Even if he wanted to stop, the momentum would have to be dealt with. A couple hundred pounds of angry criminal with a sharp, pointy object out in front of him can be a difficult thing to stop, so don't try. Instead, move! Continue to move laterally, making the offender have to follow you by changing direction with you. This might prove difficult for him if you have effectively shot him, more difficult if you continue to effectively shoot him.



Facing a knife is never easy, and never safe. Practice good situational awareness and you'll decrease the odds you'll ever need to defend yourself against a knife-wielding attacker. But practice moving and blocking while drawing your handgun, and you'll increase the odds you'll survive if you do.

Text and Photos by Larry Pomykalski, Burgeoning Gunwriter

The article can be found at http://www.thegunzone.com/edged_weapons_defense.html


- Janq
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Old 12-29-2005, 01:57 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brucelee
Thats like the fakest scenario, ever.
Yeah I know.
Skip the pics as the written body of text and overlying point is solid, unlike the Chuck E. Cheese setup pics.

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Old 12-29-2005, 01:59 AM   #3
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i am absolutely terrified of getting stabbed. i'd take a gunshot wound over a stabbing any day. I'd probably take two shots just to avoid getting stabbed. getting stabbed is very high up on the list of things i want to avoid at all costs. getting cut/sliced isn't as bad (or as fear inspiring). it may or may not be irrational, but i definetly fear stabbing devices. as a gun-noob, i have yet to develop a normal and healthy fear of them.

grant
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Old 12-29-2005, 02:01 AM   #4
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Been there done that.. knives are easy to defend against, guns are hardest (especially at range)
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Old 12-29-2005, 02:08 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by linux>windows
Been there done that.. knives are easy to defend against, guns are hardest (especially at range)
Ditto, agreed and been stabbed before with a #2 pencil no less in the lower back.
Yeah it hurts like hell but you can better fight through that and win/escape then with a gun shot.
I'd take a stabbing twice to a gun shot even by a .22 once.

Not to make like a knife is lightweight business though as you can get messed up quick if an attacker knows what he's doing or the defender doesn't.

- Janq

"...Well the two men took to fightin’. And when they pulled them from the floor. Leroy looked like a jigsaw puzzle, with a couple of pieces gone." - Bad, Bad Leroy Brown, 'Jim Croce'

Last edited by Janq; 12-29-2005 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 12-29-2005, 03:59 AM   #6
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IBbrucelee&Janqgetthrownoutoftherangeforpracticing the"SpeedRock"

Great read though! Too bad I will never be allowed to defend myself in California.
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Old 12-29-2005, 04:09 AM   #7
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katana FTW!!!!!
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Old 12-29-2005, 04:12 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mexicanpizza
IBbrucelee&Janqgetthrownoutoftherangeforpracticing the"SpeedRock"

Great read though! Too bad I will never be allowed to defend myself in California.
Gheys dont carry knives?
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Old 12-29-2005, 05:15 AM   #9
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Krav Maga (or folding baton/tonfa) FTW...I think empty hands or blunt weapon would be a better advantage vs. edged weapons. If you happen to drop your weapon now he has 2 weapons to use against you.

"No one wins in a knife fight"...
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Old 12-29-2005, 06:32 AM   #10
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Grenades PWN.
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Old 12-29-2005, 08:29 AM   #11
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A knife in the hands of a trained person is MUCH more dangerous than a gun ever would be.
1) Alot of the time, you'll never hear the person coming. Soft soled shoes take care of this...
2) You wont even know you've been stabbed, everything will simply go numb very fast.
3) In the hands of someone VERY good, there will be very little blood. That and virtually no evidence, therefore no chance that your killer will ever be found.

Have fun sleeping while you think about that for a while
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Old 12-29-2005, 09:14 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BhamRoadrunner
A knife in the hands of a trained person is MUCH more dangerous than a gun ever would be.
1) Alot of the time, you'll never hear the person coming. Soft soled shoes take care of this...
2) You wont even know you've been stabbed, everything will simply go numb very fast.
3) In the hands of someone VERY good, there will be very little blood. That and virtually no evidence, therefore no chance that your killer will ever be found.

Have fun sleeping while you think about that for a while
Stupid ninjas.

Then again, the same can be said of a sniper half a mile away.


-A
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Old 12-29-2005, 09:16 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BhamRoadrunner
A knife in the hands of a trained person is MUCH more dangerous than a gun ever would be.
1) Alot of the time, you'll never hear the person coming. Soft soled shoes take care of this...
2) You wont even know you've been stabbed, everything will simply go numb very fast.
3) In the hands of someone VERY good, there will be very little blood. That and virtually no evidence, therefore no chance that your killer will ever be found.

Have fun sleeping while you think about that for a while

Yeah I don't like to think about getting stabbed...but I would still take a gun any day.
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Old 12-29-2005, 09:23 AM   #14
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Look up the Tueller drill too.

Basically, anyone within 21 feet of you with a knife can reach you before you can draw and fire.

Try it sometime with a friend and a PRACTICE gun. (Practice knife, too)
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Old 12-29-2005, 09:28 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BhamRoadrunner
A knife in the hands of a trained person is MUCH more dangerous than a gun ever would be.
1) Alot of the time, you'll never hear the person coming. Soft soled shoes take care of this...
2) You wont even know you've been stabbed, everything will simply go numb very fast.
3) In the hands of someone VERY good, there will be very little blood. That and virtually no evidence, therefore no chance that your killer will ever be found.

Have fun sleeping while you think about that for a while

That's great and all, and your statements are true, but the chances of these being real-life scenarios are unbelievably slim.

1) What have you been doing that you would ever expect someone to be trying to sneak up on you and kill you? Are you an international spy? A super vigilante that took down a mob boss? Ex-Enron executive?

2) How many people have you met in your entire life that were trained in knife tactics? It's a lot more likely that some idiot with one good hand will get a Saturday night special and shoot you from 30 feet away. And even that's pretty damn unlikely.

Last edited by Thug; 12-29-2005 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 12-29-2005, 10:23 AM   #16
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Knife fights are very dangeruos, 4 years of martial arts have taught me this. I learned quite a bit of knife fighting technique and most stabs, slashes, and strikes are quick, concise, small, and deadly. Most are targeted to the vital areas of the body that would result in imobilization, bleeding out, and death. There are many parts of the body, if cut, would result in massive amounts of blood loss and eventually death within minutes. People that know how to use a knife do not use big telegraphed slashes that we see on TV.

My advice, if someone pulls a knife or gun on you, just give them the damn wallet.

-J
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Old 12-29-2005, 10:29 AM   #17
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I train in martial arts and am also a gun owner/ccw holder.

I had a major wake up call at a regional seminar when I took a knife defense class from a 4th degree in my area.

While practicing blocks/cuts with practice knives, I was getting (admittedly) cocky. Then this guy stepped in as my partner. Following what I thought was a successful cut, he blocked my knife, "sliced" my wrist tendons, "cut" my femoral, "stabbed" my abdomen and finally "stabbed" my throat. This took somewhere in the .5 to 1 second range. Very sobering.

Not that I would take a knife over 165 gr of JHP but it was some food for thought.
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Old 12-29-2005, 10:30 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2k43door
That's great and all, and your statements are true, but the chances of these being real-life scenarios are unbelievably slim.

1) What have you been doing that you would ever expect someone to be trying to sneak up on you and kill you? Are you an international spy? A super vigilante that took down a mob boss? Ex-Enron executive?

2) How many people have you met in your entire life that were trained in knife tactics? It's a lot more likely that some idiot with one good hand will get a Saturday night special and shoot you from 30 feet away. And even that's pretty damn unlikely.
I've met plenty who were trained in knife tactics, but none that would use them anywhere outside of the battlefield. And your right, 99.99999% change you'll never have that happen to you. Probably got a better chance of getting hit in the head and killed by space debris honestly.

Course I'm sure there was someone who had alot of stock in Healthsouth or Enron that was trained in these tactics...
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Old 12-29-2005, 10:31 AM   #19
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anybody have the 'warriors edge' series from Cold steel?

pretty neat instructional video collection on knife fighting.

It's 6 tapes or 3 dvd's (i had ordered the tapes..but then they later sent me the dvd's at no cost...as they were done better and had more features...so that was cool)

there is tons of good info in those videos....

you folks should check them out.

I know that I would prefer to avoid a knife fight and getting shot...not going to like either one.


also..if you have a knife that you carry for self defense...make sure that sucker is sharp. many times folks carry knives that they use all the time...and they aren't that sharp....if you need it to defend...keep is sharp.
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Old 12-29-2005, 10:36 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bowenx
I know that I would prefer to avoid a knife fight and getting shot...not going to like either one.


also..if you have a knife that you carry for self defense...make sure that sucker is sharp. many times folks carry knives that they use all the time...and they aren't that sharp....if you need it to defend...keep is sharp.
I need a CCW just to carry my knife. K-Bar's dont go over to well with the police... Almost never looses an edge though.
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Old 12-29-2005, 10:48 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linux>windows
Been there done that.. knives are easy to defend against (especially at range)
I've trained with a guy who teaches edged weapon tactics to the U.S. Navy Seals and to the Filipino special forces (whatever theyr'e called) and even he would never say that. You must be pretty good.

Also, knives, generally, aren't mean for stabbing, they're meant for slashing. They're not meant to cause you pain, but to disable you. With two average joes, the guy with the gun will probably win at close range – if they don't both end up dying. But with two trained professionals at close range, I'd bet on the knife fighter.
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Old 12-29-2005, 10:51 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janq
Ditto, agreed and been stabbed before with a #2 pencil no less in the lower back.
Yeah it hurts like hell but you can better fight through that and win/escape then with a gun shot.
I'd take a stabbing twice to a gun shot even by a .22 once.

Not to make like a knife is lightweight business though as you can get messed up quick if an attacker knows what he's doing or the defender doesn't.

- Janq

"...Well the two men took to fightin’. And when they pulled them from the floor. Leroy looked like a jigsaw puzzle, with a couple of pieces gone." - Bad, Bad Leroy Brown, 'Roy Croce'
Jim Croce?

Janq I like Massad Ayoob's logic on knife weilding attackers. If they are within 21 ft of you they qualify for free shots, no questions asked.
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Old 12-29-2005, 10:54 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BhamRoadrunner
I need a CCW just to carry my knife. K-Bar's dont go over to well with the police... Almost never looses an edge though.
Well, i think that most folks don't carry a K-bar...I've got 2..one new and one from WW2...wouldn't dream of carrying them on a daily basis. (although it would be pretty badass)

I think in CT you can't carry a double edged one...or one that has a blade of over 4 inches? but a 4 inch blade can do plenty of damage. I generally don't carry any blade..unless it's a leatherman...and at that point if you are in a spot where you need the blade as defense..you're screwed.

Actually, most of the knives I own I can't really carry on a daily basis..I might need a permit for them...not sure...so i don't feel like pushing it (nor do i really need one in the rough and grough world of working in an Insurance company)
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Old 12-29-2005, 11:02 AM   #24
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if anyone wantes to learn more about edged weapon combat I'd recomend a book or a browse to some filipino martial arts websites. I train in one of the more well known systems as do a lot of law enforcement in the NYC area.

I would agree 100% with comments saying that an edged weapon in the hands of someone motivated is as deadly as a firearm.
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Old 12-29-2005, 11:05 AM   #25
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You can't carve "LiveJournal" into your arm with a gun.
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