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Old 07-03-2014, 01:57 PM   #4126
trev2eagles
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Would it be possible/ not adviseable to run a Dry Nitrous system alongside an existing water/ meth injection system? The w/m injects into the intercooler outlet at the throttlebody connecting pipe, the dry nitrous jet would be placed 4-5 inches away from it on my TMIC.
The extra fueling for the NOS would be controlled by the ecu.
Is there a physical problem mixing nitrous/water/meth?
thanks
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Old 07-07-2014, 11:31 AM   #4127
shaman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
The pump was most probably mounted on its side and unsealed judging by the location of the deposit. We turn the label around for the benefit of truck mount application where it is logical to have the pump head at the lowest point.

We have never considered the implication of the label orientation for those who decides to install the pump in the engine bay. The pump has three locations where water can be sucked into the pump during the cooling cycle as partial vacuum can be formed when the cooling air contracts inside the pump.

For absolute protection, sealant should be applied to all mating surfaces. The aquatec pump has three. Cable gland, back face to motor body and pump head to motor surface.



What sealant do you recommend, and what about the older race pumps for those that might still be running them?
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Old 07-07-2014, 11:38 AM   #4128
shaman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trev2eagles View Post
Would it be possible/ not adviseable to run a Dry Nitrous system alongside an existing water/ meth injection system? The w/m injects into the intercooler outlet at the throttlebody connecting pipe, the dry nitrous jet would be placed 4-5 inches away from it on my TMIC.
The extra fueling for the NOS would be controlled by the ecu.
Is there a physical problem mixing nitrous/water/meth?
thanks
Trev
Some have mentioned methanol falling out of the air, but some people have also used methanol for the wet side of a nitrous kit. See my discussion with NX on the topic...

http://ls1tech.com/forums/nitrous-ox...hanol-mix.html
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Old 07-08-2014, 01:33 PM   #4129
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I can see any problem injecting water with nitrous as long as you don't inject too much to freeze the throttle plate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trev2eagles View Post
Would it be possible/ not adviseable to run a Dry Nitrous system alongside an existing water/ meth injection system? The w/m injects into the intercooler outlet at the throttlebody connecting pipe, the dry nitrous jet would be placed 4-5 inches away from it on my TMIC.
The extra fueling for the NOS would be controlled by the ecu.
Is there a physical problem mixing nitrous/water/meth?
thanks
Trev
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Old 07-08-2014, 01:44 PM   #4130
Aquamist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaman View Post
What sealant do you recommend, and what about the older race pumps for those that might still be running them?
The race pump uses o-ring on machined surface so the o-ring groove/cavities are conformal. Sealant does not guarantee long term adhesion because the contact surface has different expansion properties. Try finding a sealant that does not harden over time. The temperature swing in the engine bay is very wide.

I believe a company used to seal the pump with sealant for years and recent changed to a vinyl sleeve.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alkycontrol-...-/321363151417
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Old 07-08-2014, 01:52 PM   #4131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rays_240 View Post
Its good to see a company reach out and offer help with questions like this.
It works well for both, customers and manufacturer. We learn a great deal from how our system perform on the long term. Those information is priceless.

It helps funding the forum and benefit the members who use the products. Wonderful loop.
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Old 07-08-2014, 01:52 PM   #4132
shaman
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Yeah, if they step into the new milennium any time soon and go aquatec I may pick one up.
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Old 07-08-2014, 06:58 PM   #4133
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You can pick one up here:
3" (ID) x 6" (L) fits the aquatec pump perfectly.

http://www.stockcap.com/store/long-caps.html
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Old 07-08-2014, 07:37 PM   #4134
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Stop spending my money Richard Punch hole for the cable or run the cable up to the top?
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Old 07-09-2014, 04:36 AM   #4135
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Punching a hole on top defeats the object unless you seal the hole properly. If you are mounting the pump vertically, wire end up, the wires can run along internally?

I don't think the sleeve is that expensive.
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Old 07-27-2014, 04:54 PM   #4136
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May be of some interest to some, we have a new 5-quart tank system that might work on the suby.
http://www.aquamist-direct.com/806-6...th-bracket-5l/

It is unusually weird shape, but who knows... Like some feedback please!
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Old 07-27-2014, 07:27 PM   #4137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
May be of some interest to some, we have a new 5-quart tank system that might work on the suby.
http://www.aquamist-direct.com/806-6...th-bracket-5l/

It is unusually weird shape, but who knows... Like some feedback please!

That looks promising for those that can not or does not want to use the oem sti tmic-water tank or the spec c unit.
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Old 07-28-2014, 01:06 PM   #4138
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Old 07-28-2014, 03:43 PM   #4139
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I got a question regarding calculating nozzle size. Ill be running a vf39/ewg setup on my car and got a hfs3 kit. Im running stock 560cc injectors, since they wont be maxed out regardless if im running meth or not does that change my calculations for nozzle size?

I was talking to my tuner and he said if he recalled correctly I should be running a .8mm jet.
I did my calculations with total flow from injectors and roughly 20 psi max boost and ended up with a .9mm jet.
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Old 07-28-2014, 05:37 PM   #4140
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Regardless max or not maxed out, you still based your calculation based on full fuel capacity. You can use the "gain" trimmer to scale up the meth flow if necessary.

The difference between 0.8 and 0.9mm is quite small. A 10C ambient temperature change would negate this discussion.
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:13 AM   #4141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
Regardless max or not maxed out, you still based your calculation based on full fuel capacity. You can use the "gain" trimmer to scale up the meth flow if necessary.

The difference between 0.8 and 0.9mm is quite small. A 10C ambient temperature change would negate this discussion.
Okay thank you!
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Old 07-30-2014, 01:59 PM   #4142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
Ensure you put the fifth nozzle at the exit of the FMIC to help more induction cooling. Having direct port doesn't help with induction cooling.
Richard,

I'm putting together a 2006 STi with 1000cc fuel injectors and 50/50% methanol mixture. I want to do direct port injection with a 5th injector in the intercooler piping for cooling. I have some concerns I want to clear up.

From what I understand, the benefit of direct port injection is to ensure each cylinder has even flow of methanol. When using one injector placed before the throttle body for meth, the mist does not reach all injectors evenly. So, the tune is catered towards the weakest cylinder (or the cylinder receiving the least benefit from the methanol injection). This is due to imperfect plenum design. So, adding direct injection removes the flaws of the plenum and ensures even distribution of methanol to each cylinder.

The downfall of direct port injection is that it doesn't have the evaporative cooling benefit from the port in the intercooler piping. So, I want to have the best of both worlds, even flow, and cooling effect. I want to add a fifth injector in the intercooler piping.

My question is, will that mess up the benefits of direct port injection?

Here is my logic, please tell me if I'm mistaken. When running just a single pre-throttle body injector the cylinders could theoretically receive different percentages of the methanol. Lets say cylinder #1 receives 30% of the methanol, cylinder #2 - 30%, cylinder #3 - 20%, cylinder #4 - 20%. So, cylinder 3 and 4 are not receiving as much meth. Add direct port injection and they all receive 25%.

Now, let's add a fifth injector. Each injector will be the same size for this example (I think that the fifth injector should be bigger in real life, but I might be wrong). The direct port injectors will each deliver 20% of the total flow. The fifth injector has 20% as well, but this doesn't end up into the cylinders equally. We are back at our same problem, but it isn't quite as dramatic. Using the same distribution ratio, the final result is cylinder 1 - 26%, cylinder 2 - 26%, cylinder 3 24%, cylinder 4 - 24%.

So, if my logic is correct, the cylinders are fairly close to each other in terms of methanol benefits. The equality lowers when larger fifth injectors are used.

So, basically I'm looking for validation that I am thinking in the right direction and direct port with a fifth injector isn't totally stupid.

Also, can you help me pick some injector sizes? Again, I'm running a 50/50 meth/H20 mix with 1000cc fuel injectors. I want 4 direct port injectors and a 5th injector. I'm guessing size .3 x4 and a .4~.5 for the fifth injector.

And last but not least, what is the best location for the fifth injector with FMIC piping? I'm assuming just after the intercooler core.

Thanks Richard



P.S. - To those who belittle others for not searching: I have searched and I'm writing this long question because I come up with vague references to fifth injectors and don't see exact sizes and locations discussed. I want some science to back up the idea of fifth injectors.
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Old 07-31-2014, 10:46 AM   #4143
Mike Costin
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Hi Pearl

That is an interesting question. I am looking forward to hearing Richard's recommendation. I've often considered going to direct port injection on a GD Impreza myself

One thing I've noticed is that most Subarus with methanol/water injection aren't actually tuned for the methanol charge. Most setups seem to take advantage of the evaporation cooling effect and increased detonation buffer provided by the methanol but rarely is the ignition significantly advanced or the primary fueling reduced enough to be considered "tuned". I suspect many Subaru owners with M/W injection would quickly find their clutches underrated and in need of immediate replacement if they were to experiment with more timing and AFR's in the 12-13:1 indicated range. But that is a lot of faith to put behind a one simple injection nozzle and most prefer not to rebuild every season.

Direct port with a fifth injector doesn't sound stupid to me. It makes sense to cool the air charge down as much as possible before it hits the cylinder. Then the port injection need not inject as much and perhaps you could go with smaller nozzles for the port injection with better vaporization.

If the overwhelming majority of your injected mist before the TB evaporates into gaseous state you shouldn't have to worry much about a dry plenum pooling fuel. I would put the injector immediately after the intercooler, as far from the TB as possible to ensure complete state change. You might even want to do two smaller jets on a wye instead of one medium size for the same reason.

Another thing to consider is to put a 6th injector after the turbo but before the intercooler. This jet would need to be the smallest possible size (tiny!) to avoid pooling and logging in the intercooler core. But I wouldn't attempt this idea without repeated physical inspection during the tuning process.

If you're doing this yourself I would get 4-channel EGR and o2 sensor logging -- hard to go wrong with all that data if you tune in small incremental steps.
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Old 07-31-2014, 11:55 AM   #4144
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Richard, can the HFS3 support multiport injection? I am using a 1.0mm jet and it is insufficient for my application. I use 80% meth for my TD06SL2 20G at 1.7bars.
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Old 07-31-2014, 12:18 PM   #4145
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Since we are on the subject



I see pretty good IAT reduction with the nozzles down there. They are about 2.5 feet from the TB.

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Old 07-31-2014, 04:12 PM   #4146
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The 5th injector***8230;


Water molecules (in liquid form) are held together by Van der Waals force (VDW). As heat is applied (or adsorbed), it starts to expand and change to gaseous state. The surface molecule is the first region to evaporate as it is closest to the applied heat. It will continue to evaporate until it has reached saturation point where no further evaporation is expected. Similarly, the vapour will condense and form bigger molecules when temperature is decreased. This ever-changing equilibrium state is commonly termed as enthalpy.

Consider a closed environment such as the inlet tract of an engine (loosely defined without going to into too many details), the amount of water sprayed and evaporated is subject to temperature, pressure and humidity of the incoming air.

Translate this into real operating environment. There is no point using a larger nozzle than what is demanded. It will only make matter worse. Once full saturation is reached, continue to increase flow will not reduce temperature further or resulting in larger and heavier droplets entering the cylinders unevenly. But what if the engine needs it? Direct-port is a simple solution.

Not only do you get perfect balance of charge cooling and in-cylinder cooling. Direct port allows you to inject large amount of fluid without risk of over- or under- delivery. It some cases, you can run a slightly larger jet if one cylinder is known to run hotter than others. But what is the drawback? Answer: very little if you can achieve the following recommendations.

1. The fluid is free of debris and direct port jets should have inbuilt filter, the last line of defence.
2. Each jet should have an internal check-valve to isolate the fluid in the line being siphoned and empted into the cylinders after lift off. High methanol ratio mix left in the cylinder will promote pre-ignition.
3. Use a accurate true engine load tracking delivery rather reference to boost only. Aquamist users can relax here.
4. Constant pressure/PWM valve will allow the 5th injector to perform its job properly over a wide operation range without over delivery in low and middle load.
5. PTPE lines and compression fittings are preferred.

As this thread is all about Aquamist systems. So you have the equipment, be bold and push the frontier forward.
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Old 07-31-2014, 04:17 PM   #4147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacky599r View Post
Richard, can the HFS3 support multiport injection? I am using a 1.0mm jet and it is insufficient for my application. I use 80% meth for my TD06SL2 20G at 1.7bars.
The aquamist HFxxx system can deliver over 1300cc/min. You can increase the system pressure too 200psi quite safely.
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Old 07-31-2014, 04:17 PM   #4148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post
Since we are on the subject



I see pretty good IAT reduction with the nozzles down there. They are about 2.5 feet from the TB.


This is good. Very good example.
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Old 07-31-2014, 10:13 PM   #4149
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Is that direct injected +2 injectors for cooling?

It's $500 to get all the injectors and hardware needed to go from 1 1.2mm injector to 5 small injectors. I want to know if I'm going to see any benefit over my one large injector.

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Old 07-31-2014, 10:43 PM   #4150
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I'm not direct injecting... yet
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