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Old 01-29-2009, 04:20 PM   #1
Element Tuning
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Default For the Track: Working With the 08 WRX/STi Suspension

Ok lots of interesting stuff in this thread. The bottom line is that I feel I can make a faster car out of the 08+ than my 06 STi so all hope should not be lost. If you can make the 02-07 fast then you can make an 08+ fast also.

The problem I have with the 06 STi is the rear end jacking up in turns and the amount of negative camber that needs to be run. The front is not ideal but what works on the front for the 02-07 also works on the 08+. While the Mac Strut isn't ideal we can make it work.

On either platform excessively lowering the car without making compensations will result in a poor handling setup. Just using lowering springs never works well on any car so a proper combination of strut/spring or coilover is ideal. Regardless of the negative geometry changes the car has to be low for racing. On both platforms you need to get as much caster as possible and you have to have an aggressive ball joint relocation kit like the 6 Gun. This will flatten out the control arms to ensure a better camber curve than lowering without.

The problem with going low on the front is the effect on bumpsteer. This was much worse on my 08 WRX compared to my 06 STi. Lowering on the front of the 08 resulted in wicked bumpsteer. The super long 6 Gun tie rod pins are likely the only optimal fix for this and I run them on my 08 WRX.

Because of the multi-link rear you should not need as much negative camber but I still added camber bushing in the rear so we could dial in what we needed. With fairly stiff coilovers and a stiff rear sway bar I haven't felt any significant negative effect of the rear dynamic toe changes. I still have some corner exit push but I attribute this more to the open rear diff on the WRX than anything else.

I did one track test on completely stock suspension and while body roll was ridicules (people actually made fun of me LOL!) I spanked a lot of people running R comps and I was on street tires. I used a set of camber bolts on the front for maximum negative camber and tack welded them in place. The balance was good, still some push under acceleration, but the brake dive and power on squat didn't inspire much confidence and was a handful under braking.

At the next track test I added large sway bars front and rear plus links. The front links broke instantly on the track so I had to put stock on and I still use them to this day. Body roll was much reduced but there was now lots of oversteer especially in the switch backs. I'm talking full on opposite lock, full throttle, boiling the tires. LOL! I would say the handling would put a novice into the wall but a great driver could dance the fine line at a wicked pace. I was only off the pace by about 1.5-2 seconds using street tires compared to the Z06s on Hoosiers. I had lots of grip but I was loosing time in the switchbacks because of the massive oversteer. Lifting even a little mid corner resulted in hairy oversteer.

At the next event we installed my first test set of BC coilovers and a set camber correction bushings. With no setup time since I was racing two cars the car was actually slower, pushed, had wicked bump steer, and just felt wrong. I was lucky to finish 4th against some of the fastest Redline Time Attack "Street" class competitors. So even though it was fast I knew it could be much faster.

At the next event we had installed different spring rates on our BC coilovers, I had dialed in the ride height better, I changed to a better preload setting, changed the clickers, and added the 6 Gun Ball Joint extenders and bump steer kit. I was racing two cars again at this event and didn't even get to practice in the 08 WRX. I just let her rib winning the Redline Time Attack "Street" class overall and taking home $1000 in purse money.

At the next NASA race I tweaked a little more on the clickers and added some GT Spec chassis braces, I won TTB setting a new track record that was actually also faster than the TTA track record.


Video: http://www.elementtuning.com/Videos/...mitRecord1.wmv


08 WRX Sedan Mods:

Element Hydra and Hydramist
Element GT52 Turbocharger
Element Tuning DP with Catalytic Converter
Element Competition Catch Can
STi TMIC
950cc injectors
BC Coilovers (Element Spec)
Sway Bars
GT Spec Chassis Braces
Dunlop 245/35-18 Z star Spec
Brembo (STi) Front Calipers
Wide STi front end swap

I've limited my power to about 375-400 whp since I'm not sure how much this 5 speed will hold. I still have some corner exit push but it's manageable. I know how to fix it I'm just not sure I'm willing to do it on my daily driver. Likely a smaller rear bar with a higher spring rate would do the trick but so would a better rear diff.

I hope this helps.

Thanks,
Phil
http://www.elementtuning.com
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Old 01-29-2009, 04:25 PM   #2
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Hey Phil -

Gimme a call some time and I can run you through our findings on the rear suspension.

-Clint
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Old 01-29-2009, 04:34 PM   #3
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Default

If you're willing to share, please post it here.

I read a little about what you found in another thread regarding the rear toe changes and how it can add a little rear steer. I haven't found this to be much of an issue but it's likely because one wheel is usually up in the air. LOL!
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Old 01-29-2009, 10:54 PM   #4
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Thanks for splitting this out
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Old 01-29-2009, 11:03 PM   #5
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How do you like those SS tires for track? Did you get them shaved or were they full tread?
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Old 01-30-2009, 08:50 AM   #6
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So far so good and have been very impressed with them for a "street" class tire. While they are not quite as fast as an RA1 they are not far off and can handle lots of track abuse. On the track they wear out like R comps and I even think they have less track life than the RA1 (too bad you can't them anymore) or similar to R888.

Depending on your race class you might be better off just running an R comp unless you are required to run "street" tires like this car is.

That Mustang was on Hoosiers and I gave him a beat down with the ol WRX. This however was mostly driver as there was another identical car driven by someone else that qualified in the 1.22 range. My 08 WRX can hustle big time and so far I am very impressed with the 08 chassis. I don't run a cage and find the car stiffer than the old platform. The GT Spec braces help of course and are easy to install. If I put a set of Hoosiers on I would be down into the 1.21 range at Summit Point which is on par with the Super Touring Race Z06s. I'm also going to work on a little more front downforce.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 01-30-2009, 08:54 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning View Post
That Mustang was on Hoosiers and I gave him a beat down with the ol WRX. This however was mostly driver as there was another identical car driven by someone else that qualified in the 1.22 range.
I think I ran with both mustangs once. I would come up on one and he was pretty quick, and then three laps later I'd pass a mustang again like he was standing still. Took me like three sessions to figure out there were two of them.

-Duncan
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Old 01-30-2009, 11:43 AM   #8
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I've been on track with one too. One's butt assed slow. I actually pulled on him going up hill on the bridge straight on Shenandoah. I surely wasn't expecting that (I was over boosting a bit that day though). The slow one's run by an older guy (older than me anyway). He's just out having a good time. I haven't been on track with the fast one.
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Old 01-30-2009, 12:26 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning View Post
So far so good and have been very impressed with them for a "street" class tire. While they are not quite as fast as an RA1 they are not far off and can handle lots of track abuse. On the track they wear out like R comps and I even think they have less track life than the RA1 (too bad you can't them anymore) or similar to R888.

Depending on your race class you might be better off just running an R comp unless you are required to run "street" tires like this car is.

That Mustang was on Hoosiers and I gave him a beat down with the ol WRX. This however was mostly driver as there was another identical car driven by someone else that qualified in the 1.22 range. My 08 WRX can hustle big time and so far I am very impressed with the 08 chassis. I don't run a cage and find the car stiffer than the old platform. The GT Spec braces help of course and are easy to install. If I put a set of Hoosiers on I would be down into the 1.21 range at Summit Point which is on par with the Super Touring Race Z06s. I'm also going to work on a little more front downforce.

Thanks,
Phil
Yeah - the toe is a vexing problem. We have an idea on how to rear steer the car, but need to prototype then test it. My drawings, measurements, and understanding tells me I'm on the right track though.

I'm not happy with the whole rear travel situation, and a tire in the air combined with the open rear diff really makes me unhappy. Imagine how quick you could come out with a diff and all 4 planted.

right now the biggest priority on our 08 is getting it running again. Our turbo munched it, and we're waiting on the replacement.

-Clint
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Old 01-30-2009, 12:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning View Post
The GT Spec braces help of course and are easy to install.
Which braces are you running?
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Old 01-30-2009, 02:26 PM   #11
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too bad the 6gun's snap.

In the end with the problems with the rear suspension on the 08's a fast driver can make any car fast. The crawford car is pretty fast considering its a 08 as well.

Last edited by STi-MAN; 01-30-2009 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 01-30-2009, 02:29 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post

I'm not happy with the whole rear travel situation, and a tire in the air combined with the open rear diff really makes me unhappy. Imagine how quick you could come out with a diff and all 4 planted.

-Clint
Yes this is the same problem we have but we also struggle with that on the 06 Time Attack car (wheel lift). Getting down the power on exit is definitely worth seconds a lap! It really depends on how people step it up in the "street" class but I may just have to go much higher on the rear spring rate and damper, then either go to the stock sway bar or eliminate it entirely. If I can't keep it planted this way a clutch type diff will be the next step. If I was racing the 08 STi I'm sure I would be in a better place given the differentials but so far very impressed with the pace of the WRX.

With the WRX 5 speed I really can't go more than 400 whp without likely blowing the trans so I can't cheat the handling with 500 whp .
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Old 01-30-2009, 02:31 PM   #13
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Which braces are you running?
I ran the front strut brace, and lower frame brace but I have more to test for next year.
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Old 01-30-2009, 08:39 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning View Post
Yes this is the same problem we have but we also struggle with that on the 06 Time Attack car (wheel lift). Getting down the power on exit is definitely worth seconds a lap! It really depends on how people step it up in the "street" class but I may just have to go much higher on the rear spring rate and damper, then either go to the stock sway bar or eliminate it entirely. If I can't keep it planted this way a clutch type diff will be the next step. If I was racing the 08 STi I'm sure I would be in a better place given the differentials but so far very impressed with the pace of the WRX.

With the WRX 5 speed I really can't go more than 400 whp without likely blowing the trans so I can't cheat the handling with 500 whp .
What dampers are you using and how much travel do they have?
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Old 01-30-2009, 09:44 PM   #15
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BC Racing
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Old 01-30-2009, 10:29 PM   #16
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His unlimited setup used to be JIC's.

-Duncan
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Old 01-30-2009, 11:02 PM   #17
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Quote:
BC Coilovers (Element Spec)
in the first post
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Old 01-31-2009, 09:05 AM   #18
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I was wondering on the specifics though. I doubt BC has released any specific info on travel or damper numbers.

Tony
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Old 01-31-2009, 03:27 PM   #19
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Ah, sorry. I've tried to get Tristen to spill that info in other threads involving their units but so far no luck.
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Old 02-01-2009, 10:04 AM   #20
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I would have to measure that when or if I have time. The travel seems adequate but I might be just a little too low on the front. I can run lower than most because of the high spring rate and the 6 Gun Ball Joint extenders but I might go up 1/4 more on the front.

On the rear it really feels good with exception to the inside lift. I really think this has more to do with the stiff rear bar and that's why I would like to go stiffer on the rear suspension and go back to the stock bar. It's a double edged sword really as going stiffer will make it unbearable on the street but will up the performance on the track. A big rear bar makes a lighter spring work but the trade off is the inside wheel lift while trying to lay down power on the exit.

I may try going some with tender springs so the lower adjusters can be raised which should give me a little more drop travel once the current ride height is restored. I don't have an issue with travel yet so I think I have enough to spare. This would be worth testing over longer rear dampers.
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Old 02-01-2009, 10:21 AM   #21
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What is the "element spec"? Different springs or springs + other stuff?
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Old 02-01-2009, 10:25 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning View Post
I would have to measure that when or if I have time. The travel seems adequate but I might be just a little too low on the front. I can run lower than most because of the high spring rate and the 6 Gun Ball Joint extenders but I might go up 1/4 more on the front.

On the rear it really feels good with exception to the inside lift. I really think this has more to do with the stiff rear bar and that's why I would like to go stiffer on the rear suspension and go back to the stock bar. It's a double edged sword really as going stiffer will make it unbearable on the street but will up the performance on the track. A big rear bar makes a lighter spring work but the trade off is the inside wheel lift while trying to lay down power on the exit.

I may try going some with tender springs so the lower adjusters can be raised which should give me a little more drop travel once the current ride height is restored. I don't have an issue with travel yet so I think I have enough to spare. This would be worth testing over longer rear dampers.
If you are lifting due to lack of travel a tender/helper spring isn't going to get you anything else. What size bar are you running in the rear?

With good dampers and tuning it should be possible to run stiffer springs while not being too harsh on the road.
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Old 02-02-2009, 01:22 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
If you are lifting due to lack of travel a tender/helper spring isn't going to get you anything else. What size bar are you running in the rear?

With good dampers and tuning it should be possible to run stiffer springs while not being too harsh on the road.
I'm currently on a 20 mm rear bar. I think the tender spring will help as they allow for more sag. I can then raise the strut in the lower mounts. When the car is on the lift the wheels will be closer to the ground but because of the extra sag the ride height will be the same once on the ground. I will loose compression travel but I will have more rebound travel.

Too harsh is subjective I guess but anything 12 kg and up I consider excessively firm for a street car and can hop and skip over the rough stuff mid corner. Maximizing the grip on rough asphalt is different than maximizing grip on a smooth race course. For true street setups (not race "street") I like less spring and more bar. That's what I was going for with this 08 WRX.
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