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08-24-2011, 02:18 PM | #51 | |
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I wonder what Mazda is planning on doing with the chassis after they move onto the next car. If they're changing everything to reduce weight they might abandon the RX-8/NC Miata chassis for something lighter. It would be wonderful if someone could buy up the old RX-8 chassis and redesign it for a piston engine and then continue selling it under another name. Maybe a Honda F20C/F22C or even a RWD K20 for easy modding? I would hate to see it become another Muscle car but I doubt a 2.0L MZR version would be popular unless it was dirt cheap and got good MPG. Have you seen Mazda's MPG numbers? They are all far lower than the Ford versions. I highly doubt that the MPG of a RX-8 chassis with the Mazdaspeed3 turbo 4 would be more than 2 or 3 MPG above the current MPG with the Renesis, which is exactly where the Mazdaspeed3 is ranked. Maybe if it used the NC Miata engine, MAYBE it would get 25MPG.
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08-24-2011, 03:50 PM | #52 | |
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And seriously the MPG is not as dismal as many make it out to be. I average a little more with the RX8 than I do in my STi, both around 18 mpg mixed driving with plenty of on ramp WOT in the Mazda. The Subaru I can't beat on as much without getting into trouble. |
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08-24-2011, 06:08 PM | #53 | |
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Keep in mind that in 1989, when the Miata was released, Mazda was working on the FD (released in late '91 as a MY92 in Japan), which was suppose to be a technological tour de force, what with it's complex, twin sequential turbo system and no compromise, super car class chassis. Once the Miata established itself as a sales leader, any idea of changing it significantly would have been an unnecessary risk for any Mazda decision maker, never mind that it's much harder to adsorb the extra cost at the lower price level the Miata needed to occupy. Cliff notes: Miata - low-end sports car, RX7 - high-end sports car |
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08-24-2011, 06:49 PM | #54 |
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Last edited by elirentz; 08-24-2011 at 07:14 PM. |
08-24-2011, 07:59 PM | #55 | |
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Obviously a concern is going to be how the weight is balanced, as the Mazdaspeed 3 engine is going to be physically larger and not as easily placed for the more optimal weight distribution that the RX-8 has, but it's not as if it's suddenly going to become a 60:40 split. A lot of people (on this forum as well, as I remember the threads) were doubting the capabilities of the Corvette ZR1, as the Z06 was 50:50, and it was revealed that with the LS9 motor, the ZR1 would be a tad more nose heavy. It seems to cope with it just fine. I just think it could be done, but purists will refuse it, even though in reality, it will get the job done, possibly better. Truck owners whined and whined about V-6s not being able to get the job done as V-8s were preferred and reigned supreme in full-size truck engine bays, yet today, they actually tried it and have achieved success, particularly Ford, with their V-6 and V-6 twin-turbo engines which have not only been outselling the V-8 models but, in some cases, out-pulling them while being more generous at the fuel pumps as well. |
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08-24-2011, 08:16 PM | #56 |
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^I'm not saying that an RX8 with a MS3 motor in it wouldn't be successful or fun to drive. Its just that the rotary is a neat powerplant with high output per liter and revs to the stratosphere. It really is fun to beat on.
I do agree with some of the posters here that it would be better with FI on the 13b but I'm sure emissions would have been that much worse. |
08-24-2011, 09:42 PM | #57 |
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I hope this isn't the end of the rotary...
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08-24-2011, 10:34 PM | #58 |
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also, don't forget guys, the car is 8 years old by now. it reached the end of it's life at this point. it is sad that it wasn't selling at all by the end, but if they kept building it, it's not like it would sell. someone mentioned that the rotary is still alive and well at Mazda - i'm excited to see what they do with it next.
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08-24-2011, 10:44 PM | #59 | |
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Posted this is a previous thread, but I think it shows that from a business perspective, that decision to take the rotary a little more mainstream (compared to the FD) was a good one in the RX8, even if it was controversial: Take a look at the late '70s though; the oil crisis in '79 barely dented 1st gen RX7 sales and, adjusted for inflation, gas prices were similar then as now. I truly hope a rotary successor follows in the same pattern; ultralight weight, simple and affordable (as much as possible anyways) RWD sports car. Last edited by dclin; 08-24-2011 at 10:50 PM. |
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08-25-2011, 02:46 AM | #60 | |
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I too hope that Mazda's next rotary offering is put in something a little more spartan and focused. The rotary will never be the best choice for a grand touring car...IMO it belongs in a focused sportscar. |
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08-25-2011, 10:38 AM | #61 |
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I would like to see a new rotary car be more like the 86-92 2nd generation Rx-7. That generation had a lot of different trim levels available: a bare bones sport model, a more optioned-out luxurious model, a turbo model, and a convertible. That would allow the high volume for cost sharing but also the more niche versions for enthusiasts.
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08-25-2011, 11:25 AM | #62 |
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but if you could build a car with piston engine that fits the above profile with more usable torque, why go with rotary? not that rotary cant be an option, but i am not sure if i see why rotary is better than piston except that it seemed like a cool idea at its inception?
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08-25-2011, 11:28 AM | #63 | |
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The usable torque thing is interesting. Rotary engines did not become high strung until the mid 80s as Mazda kept trying to extract more and more horsepower out of the same 13B architecture that they were not welling to fully redesign. The early fuel injected 13B engines (84-85 Rx-7) were hitting peak torque at ~3000rpm. Then Mazda kept adding more complicated turbochargers or variable intake systems on the naturally aspirated ones. The 3 and 4 rotor engines made gobs of torque. |
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08-25-2011, 06:00 PM | #64 |
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Good info.
to bounce off of the comments above, I agree with most. I like the FC-RX7, myself. The FD is prettier, but much more expensive. I am not a big fan of the styling on the original RX7, but it was technically a very nice car. I want to see them further differentiate the next rotary car from the Miata, by going a bit up-market, but not crazy. 35-45K would be plenty, between a tech-only 'RS' model, and a full-option Grand Touring equipped car. And unlike the standard layout that Subaru/Toyota adopted, and Miata also has, I would like to see something really interesting. Mid-engined. If Toyota won't revive the MR2, and the Elise is going away, as well due to the end of the 2ZZ engine, Mazda should be the one to step in. A sleeker, less expensive car than a Porsche Cayman, with the packaging advantages of a rotary. They could even offer several options, like 2-rotor, 3 rotor, or hybrid electric assist. (the only hybrid I am enthused about is adding electric motor low-end torque to a rotary's high-RPM nature, with a minimum of battery weight.) I would love to see what they can do with the 16X rotary, paired with a dual-clutch fast-shifting paddle gearbox, similar to PDK, and a torque-vectoring rear differential... I'd love to see a technology tour-de-force variant with other optional tech like magneto-rheological dampers, cross-hydraulically-linked dampers without the need for torsion spring anti-roll-bars. (see McLaren MP4-12C, and old Citroen DS.), and with the advent of electric assist steering, I'd love to see 4-wheel electric variable-assist steering, with a centralized vehicle dynamics control system. Maybe even a light Front-wheel traction assist to minimize un-intentional over-steer, and provide regenerative braking. Not even big-time AWD, more like an electrical front-assist that the Ferrari FF does mechanically. Active motivational traction control, rather than just resistive traction control via the brakes. All driven from a generator harnessed on the rotary engine, and only as much battery capacitance on board as needed, to keep weight as modest as possible. And of course, another variant that is four well suspended wheels, a seat, and a rotary engine putting power to the ground through a good-ole manual transaxle, wrapped in simple sleek bodywork, and that's about it. |
08-25-2011, 06:30 PM | #65 | |
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Go back to the pics I posted on page 1 of this thread. Keep in mind that the mass of the rotary (the block) is basically behind and below the alternator. See the main pulley? That's the center of the block, and the block height is to around the bottom of the alternator. Another pic. This is a FD engine in a FC, but here you can make out the top of the block, (after all the wire harnesses/solenoids/etc have been cleaned up and cleared out) between the back of the alternator and the upper intake manifold. You can barely make out the main pulley (black) behind the purple radiator hose, and below/offset of the blue water pump pulley. Now draw an imaginary line from the main pulley up to the height of the windshield base. Replace the aluminum upper intake manifold with a composite one (read plastic) like on the Renesis (since its not boosted like the FD), and you can get an idea of how really low the mass is. The flat four probably comes closest in low center of mass, but the pistons/heads/etc make the unit naturally wider; rotary is narrower as that it has nothing hanging off the sides (unless you turbo it of course). Does the rotary automatically mean a well handling car (or hope of world peace)? Of course not, there are plenty of great handling cars with piston engines; the rotary simply makes it easier to achieve. |
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08-25-2011, 06:41 PM | #66 |
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i'd buy a rx8 if it came with more rotors. i could do without turbos if so.
4 > 3 > 2. |
08-25-2011, 06:51 PM | #67 |
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K, another pic; not sure what RX model this is in (RX3 maybe?), but this rotary does feature an FD upper intake manifold (and I'm guessing the lower intake manifold) and clearly shows how it towers over the block, and how low the rotary can sit.
The 1st gen does look like a door stop LOL. Yes, I hope a successor doesn't look like it, just try to mimic the size, simplicity, etc. Last edited by dclin; 08-25-2011 at 06:57 PM. |
08-26-2011, 12:28 AM | #68 |
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absolutely wonderful car outside of the engine
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08-26-2011, 06:32 AM | #69 |
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You can't really separate the two. The RX8 is such a wonderful car because of the packaging allowed by the small size and low cg of the rotary. Yeah the 04's have issues but most of the trouble seen by owners is because of their ignorance of the engine. Hell watch the top-gear review, even Clarkson loves the engine.
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08-26-2011, 07:45 AM | #70 | |
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I don't really care that much about the MPG by itself, it's the combination of power and MPG that says a lot about the powerplant. and I still ask the question - if the rotary's mass, low cg, etc., is the best way to make a great handling sports car, why was it never put in the miata? they could clearly have handled the production volume, from the chart posted. |
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08-26-2011, 07:50 AM | #71 | |
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the FD was a turbo rotary, the miata would have been a natural gateway car with a NA rotary that would have lowered production costs for the FD, whose market penetration was ultimately price limited. |
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08-26-2011, 07:51 AM | #72 |
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08-26-2011, 11:28 AM | #73 |
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Not currently, but who knows what the Frankfurt, Tokyo, or other upcoming shows will reveal for what could be a next-gen rotary-powered sports car.
I have a hard time believing that Mazda, that made it's bones on "zoom-zoom" and now are advertising their "only a car worth driving is worth building" thing... That they'll leave RWD sports cars out of their lineup, other than just Miata. I certainly hope something else is coming. They are talking about cooperating with Toyota to use a variant of Hybrid Synergy Drive, are they not? Using a rotary as the mechanical input to such a system could be interesting, if it isn't too heavy, and could allow some engine management flexibility to cater to a Rotary's unique characteristics, like needing to be warmed up before being shut down. Start and stop while cold is not good for Rotaries... but a short electric only low-speed mode (to move the car to a different parking space, or something) could eliminate the need to cold-start-and-stop a rotary engine at all. |
08-26-2011, 11:37 AM | #74 |
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I think we will eventually see another rotary but it may be a while. If Mazda had the money and the economy were better it would be sooner. A sub 2,500lb curb weight would do wonders with a new rotary engine. Using oil wasn't an issue for me it's the lack of torque and possibility of flooding. That and the slow straight line speed of course. Drop 500-750 lbs and add another 40 hp and I'd add it as a second car.
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08-26-2011, 11:45 AM | #75 | |
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mazda really does make great handling cars. never was too impressed with their engines. the 2.3 disi (?) turbo in the ms3 is nice, but dies up top. |
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