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03-07-2013, 12:51 PM | #1 | ||
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Scion mulling hybrid FR-S? Toyobaru Faimly on the Horizon?
Update:
Tetsuya Tada giving some valuable insight on the twins and their prospects for future offspring, courtesy of Jalopnik. The convertible isn't exactly ready yet, either. Quote:
As if this discussion needed to get any more crazy. Lots of interesting stuff here: Quote:
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Last edited by fredzy; 03-13-2013 at 12:40 PM. Reason: Updated |
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03-07-2013, 01:10 PM | #2 |
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Turbo would be preferred.
FRS/BRZ already get decent MPG (~27-28 combined). Throw in a hybrid system and what do you get, 37-38 mpg combined? |
03-07-2013, 01:15 PM | #3 |
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hybrid wouldn't be bad if it got 50mpg like the prius. You could drive a hybrid that you would actually want to be seen in.
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03-07-2013, 01:53 PM | #4 |
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Not if it gained 400 lbs to become a hybrid. I will pass. That sort of defeats the point of the whole car.
Now a turbo would be a blast. but even that has a weight penatly of sorts. |
03-07-2013, 01:56 PM | #5 |
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It defeats the purpose of being a lightweight sports car, but being a hybrid puts it into another class of cars. It'll be the best looking and best handling hybrid (CRZ was total crap).
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03-07-2013, 02:00 PM | #6 | |
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Where are you getting 400lbs from? Civic sedan auto: 2815 lbs Civic hybrid: 2868 lbs For the Civic hybrid the battery weighs ~48lbs and the eletric motor weighs ~42lbs. Last edited by 53x12; 03-07-2013 at 02:19 PM. Reason: typo |
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03-07-2013, 02:08 PM | #7 |
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Also just looked online at the Camry hybrid XLE vs the standard XLE and from the weights I could find online it seems the hybrid weighs ~260 lbs heavier. That is for a much larger hybrid system than is needed for the FRS. Something along the lines of the Civic size would make much more sense.
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03-07-2013, 02:16 PM | #8 |
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Can they fit small electric motors on the front? I know the packaging ruled out mechanical AWD, but electric would be entertaining. And more efficient.
mmm. batter dipped honda. |
03-07-2013, 02:25 PM | #9 |
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Hybrid probably won't be worth it for the cost/benefit aspect, but it will open up the market to people that will only buy a hybrid (because it's green). I'm all for them getting more sales out of the same chassis to reduce costs and allow for faster development.
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03-07-2013, 02:30 PM | #10 | |
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As you also can't make the assumption that the hybrid drive would weigh 400 lbs. Civic hybrid drive weighs ~100 lbs, the Camry hybrid drive weighs ~ 260 ish. Not unreasonable to assume Toyota would make every effort, like you stated to incorporate lightening to compensate for the hybrid drive. No reason why it couldn't weigh around 100-150 lbs. |
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03-07-2013, 02:32 PM | #11 | |
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03-07-2013, 02:47 PM | #12 |
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Yeah, 400 lbs was just a swag, but the weight would depend greatly only on what kind of Hybrid system it was. Is a system that can run on pure EV, or will be used to boost performance. A booster type hybrid system could be VERY light indeed. But if you want it to get 75 miles on pure EV then no, it will be very heavy.
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03-07-2013, 02:48 PM | #13 |
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Honda's hybrid system is also very different, they incorporate the electric motor directly mounted onto the main engine. The motor is smaller and lighter. Toyota has the motor completely seperate which adds more weight.
Really the added weight is the battery pack and the electric motor. Depending on the size of the pack, those could weigh alot. The tesla S battery back is massive because it's all electric, the car is the size of a camry but weighs an extremely hefty 4,600lbs due mostly to the battery. 70KWH battery pack weighs 1200lbs and the 42kwh pack weighs about 825lbs for comparison. At roughly 18lbs per KWH, the prius plug in has a 4.4kWH pack so that's about 80lbs for the battery pack in a hybrid. Add in the weight of the electric motor, wiring and a few other components, i don't think a target weight of 200lbs would be unreasonable. They make electric motors that can be modified to fit between the transmission and engine, or on the back of the transmission. Perhaps they can attach it to the rear end. I also don't think you would lost much efficiency if the system used the VSC to help modulate braking power to the rear when it can, like slowing to a stop at a stoplight. |
03-07-2013, 03:03 PM | #14 | |
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The Civic hybrid has a 20 kW battery that weighs 48 lbs according to Honda. That comes out to 2.4 lbs/kW. The battery in the current Civic hybrid is significantly lighter, smaller and has a longer range than the old hybrid version. I would agree that it completely depends on what kind of hybrid system Toyota would want to put in the FT-86/FRS. |
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03-07-2013, 03:13 PM | #15 | |
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Perhaps you are mistaken in your units. The motor can use 20KW peak but not be able to sustain it. Or perhaps it's a 20WH battery. |
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03-07-2013, 03:15 PM | #16 | |
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03-07-2013, 03:20 PM | #17 | |
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The battery pack can give a peak output of 20KW(26.8HP), but it can't hold that output for a full hour, which is the equivalent of 20KWH. That's the equivalent of a man being able to lift a 200lb weight once, but not the same as that man being able to lift 200lbs for an hour. |
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03-07-2013, 03:22 PM | #18 | |
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03-07-2013, 03:26 PM | #19 |
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I would love to see a very fuel efficient version of the frs/brz.
I'm thinking a 1.6 DI motor with a CVT. Fuel economy nearing 40 MPG. I bet there are a ton of people out there that love the looks of the car but don't want to put their child in such a lightweight car with 200 HP. |
03-07-2013, 03:29 PM | #20 | |||
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So yes, in the context of your reply, you did. Also there is no point in doing math for 20KW breaking it down to 2.4lbs per KW. You can have a 20KW battery the size of a lawnmower battery put out 20KW, or the size of a computer tower put out 20KW. What matters is capacity, so your math is pointless otherwise. I think you did make a mistake and are now backtracking to try and save yourself. |
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03-07-2013, 03:39 PM | #21 | |
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You want a slower version of a BRZ that gets good mileage, why not just buy a miata. |
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03-07-2013, 03:41 PM | #22 | |
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Although the idea that Toyoburu would engineer a smaller engine, get it through all the associated EPA/DOT regulations just to put it in a low-production hybrid version of the FR-S that would cost $30k+ and make only 40mpg is pretty naive. The 2.0 NA is always going to be the cheaper to buy and cost less over the lifetime of the vehicle for 90% of people. Hybrid in this car would be for tree-humping idiots that don't understand math or science. |
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03-07-2013, 03:41 PM | #23 |
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I bet the Toyota product development folks were sitting around a table trying to figure out why manual BRZs and FR-Ss are selling out and automatic BRZs and FR-Ss are languishing on lots..
.. and then someone said, "I bet it's because automatic buyers want even more efficiency!" Seriously, the fact that the auto FR-S (which gets better fuel mileage than the manual) is a slow seller should really highlight to someone at Toyota that the market for small sports cars with automatics and good gas mileage is a tiny niche not worth exploring. Now.. a Scion tC with the Prius drivetrain would be a hot seller. |
03-07-2013, 03:46 PM | #24 | |
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03-07-2013, 03:53 PM | #25 |
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A lightweight, acceleration boosting system on the front wheels would probably make this car much more attractive to a lot of people.
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