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Old 05-18-2001, 12:14 AM   #1
Greg Sharpe
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Post Pilot, your guinea pig has arrived

Hey, I finally took my whiteline rear bar off and replaced it with the stock 13mm bar. Remember this thread? http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/Foru...ML/001673.html

When comparing a completely stock suspension to 21-frt/13-rr, it is the 21-frt/13-rr that feels better in every aspect. With the larger front bar the car reacts quicker upon turn-in, quicker to transitional steering wheel movements, not to mention road undulations . Overall front wheel grip is improved, that is to say the limit of front wheel grip is higher with the front bar. So much, that it is possible to upset the rear wheels into a small drift/slide with a jerk of the steering wheel without making the whole chassis lean over from g-load. I also felt that with the 20mm rear bar, but it was to a much greater extent.

Overall, the car doesn't lean as much, has more absolute grip, and is much more stable. There ya go! I'm thinking KC should grab a 22mm front bar for his G-stock terrorizing 'rex?!?!?!?!

EDIT: Fishguy's ass!

[This message has been edited by Greg Sharpe (edited May 18, 2001).]
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Old 05-18-2001, 03:19 AM   #2
KC
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How fast are you going when you test these limts?

Generally speaking, on an auto-x course, a larger bar in the front will increase understeer due to the speed at which you need to turn and the constant steering input changes.

What kind of alignment do you have? Is it a stock alignment or does it have alot of negative camber in the front?

Many people will 'disconnect' the front sway bar to get oversteer...

I'm at a loss too figure out why a larger front bar will cause this... I'm thinking it's alignment.

Try it on an auto-x and see how well it handles the fast transitions at speed.

--kC
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Old 05-18-2001, 04:12 AM   #3
paultg
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KC, he did try it at an autocross, front and rear bars. See the link he posted above. He had very good results with the stiffer front bar and whiteline adj. rear bar. I am not sure if he autocrossed with a stock rear bar and a larger front bar though.

He can just drive..

Just a bit of humor in the morning.

Paul G.
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Old 05-18-2001, 05:05 AM   #4
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OK reading thread now... didn't read it fully... and it was talking about a rear 20mm so that's why I ignored it.

Be4 back in a minute...
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Old 05-18-2001, 05:12 AM   #5
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Hmmm, how much is that front bar? And do I stay in GS with the front bar or get bumped to STS? I'm wondering how it will do with the KYB AGXs and stock springs..

- Ken
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Old 05-18-2001, 05:24 AM   #6
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OK read that post, the only question I have it is: "Did you try a 13 AND your whiteline on this course?"

I did '99 and most of '00 with just tires and a 20mm. It wasn't until august that I got my Coilovers.

With almost a stock alignment too. The 20 mm in the rear was perfect for my driving style. Run the tires hard and loud.

Maybe I'll get the bar... gotta find a larger front for a WRX wagon... any ideas?

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Old 05-18-2001, 05:24 AM   #7
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[Double Post]

[This message has been edited by KC (edited May 18, 2001).]
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Old 05-18-2001, 06:10 AM   #8
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Ken, the front bar is allowed in GS. Brian (North Ursalia) has a whiteline 19mm front bar on his car. Same size as stock, but much more stiff than the FHI one. He has confirmed what Greg has told me about it.

Again, KC, I don't think Greg has autocrossed with the front bar and a stock rear bar. The car behavior he described in the previous post is with the front bar and a rear bar at an autocross though.

Paul G.
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Old 05-18-2001, 08:43 AM   #9
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Paul, ya lost me...

Greg says:
Quote:
21-frt/13-rr that feels better in every aspect
I would think that means 21 Front sway and 13 (Stock RS) rear sway...

You say you don't think he ran a stock size rear?
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Old 05-18-2001, 11:19 AM   #10
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I'm here, stop the madness!

The 21-frt/13-rr feels much better than a completely stock suspension with stock bars front and rear. My alignment is stock.

I've autocrossed with the 21-frt/13-rr down in Philly region, did rather well, took STS by .5sec and the whole PAX by the same amount. Tony was quite miffed about being beaten by an RE-92 car. hehe

I haven't had a chance to autoX the 21-frt/13-rr setup yet. That's mostly because the closest event is 2.5 hrs away! Friggin Cali has to be 4bizillion miles long

However, the roads around here are tight enough to run tarmac rallies on them, wait a minute, it was called Rim of the World. hehe Anyway, I'll put myself on the line to say that the transitions on these roads are as tight as those found at a high speed autoX. Most of the mountain roads are long chains of 15mph blind corners, with whooptedo style road undulations and wierd camber changes mid corner. Fun stuff.

I'll get this setup to an autoX sooner or later, I promise. KC, won't the Whitleline bars fit the new 'rex?
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Old 05-18-2001, 11:53 AM   #11
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AHHHHHhhh you're driving me NUTZ!!!

1st you say
"I've autocrossed with the 21-frt/13-rr down in Philly region,"

Then you go on to say...
"I haven't had a chance to autoX the 21-frt/13-rr setup yet."

What the hell am I missing??? Yes or no: Did you auto-x the 21 Front/13 Rear?

Make it stop! (It sounds like a certain VP we used to have "A mind is a terrible thing that not having a mind is being very wasteful")

--kC
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Old 05-18-2001, 03:06 PM   #12
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Whew. Thanks!
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Old 05-18-2001, 04:59 PM   #13
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Dude, I'm so sorry. I f'd up writing my second post. Paul is right, I've run both whiteline bars at autocrosses, but I have never autoxed with 21-frt/13-rr. Sorry, you must have been pulling your hair out.

I won't bother editing that post, it'll make this even more confusing.
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Old 05-18-2001, 05:05 PM   #14
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kpratte: I've seen the 21mm Whiteline front bar for around $160, although Rallispecs site says it is a 22mm bar. Hmmm? G-stock allows any front sway bar to be used, so you'd be legal. I think with the bigger front bar, an autoX alignment, and some tires, a RS would be in the hunt for a win against those damn Type-Rs.
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Old 05-18-2001, 05:29 PM   #15
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After noticing that Rallispec's site didn't list a 21mm front bar from Whiteline, I checked the Whiteline site and what do you know ... there is a 20mm and a 22mm. I'm not sure how I got confused thinking that my bar was a 21mm, but whatever. I double checked the part number on my bar and it IS the 20mm Whiteline front bar.

This topic has gotten so confusing. When Pilot finally reads this he isn't going to understand any of it!

EDIT: check out this coolest stiffness chart from Whileline .

[This message has been edited by Greg Sharpe (edited May 18, 2001).]
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Old 05-18-2001, 05:34 PM   #16
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I have my Hoosiers on order now. Going to call tomorrow if not moday and get this whiteline 22mm bar for my WRX.

Then, all I'll need is the alignement and some struts.

Thanks Greg!
What you say makes perfect sense.. but seems illogial is all.

--kC
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Old 05-18-2001, 07:06 PM   #17
kpratte
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So, I guess I'll have to work most of the day on Sunday.... (I can buy car toys a lot easier if it's my overtime money)

KC - buying a bigger front bar goes against everything everybody normally says, but then again this is an AWD car that isn't like any of the usual FWD and RWD cars. My old 200SX SE-R felt way better than my RS in a tight corner. It would just hucker down until you hit a bump, then the rear multi-link beam axle would show it's ugly head and just about make you wet your pants.

I've noticed that the front end on the RS is quite heavy (lots of nose drive in stock form), maybe that's why it seems to work. We'll let KC get one and tell the rest of us how it is..

- Ken
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Old 05-18-2001, 07:29 PM   #18
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I was talking to Wayne about this on the phone tonight. It was his understanding that you can't increase the size of the front sway bar in stock class; you can only go smaller. Isn't the stock 1st Gen RS bar a 19mm stock, so going with a whiteline 20mm in front puts you in STS?

Sorry for the confusion Ken. I thought Greg had a 19mm front whiteline bar. North Ursalia says he has a 19mm Whitline in front, but according to the web site greg was on, they only make a 20 & a 22mm front bar. Humm..

So, two qusetsions need to be answered:
1) Stock size of the 1st gen RS front sway bar?
2) Actual diameter of the replacement Whiteline bar?

KC, I have no clue what the WRX's have up front, besides boost . My guess is it is about the same as the 1st Gen RS cars though.

Paul G.
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Old 05-19-2001, 12:31 AM   #19
paultg
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KC, this is what he meant, I am postive:
Quote:
I've autocrossed with the 21-frt/whiteline adj.-rr (I don't know what setting he runs) down in Philly region, did rather well, took STS by .5sec and the whole PAX by the same amount. Tony was quite miffed about being beaten by an RE-92 car. hehe
Don't forget, Greg has a stock suspension other than the bars, RE-92's, and a stock alignment like he said.

He has not autocrossed with the front bar/stock rear bar yet, because he is in Cali.

Paul G.

[This message has been edited by paultg (edited May 18, 2001).]
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Old 05-19-2001, 12:44 AM   #20
Greg Sharpe
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Here ya go, this is from the SCCA Solo2 Stock class rule book ...
Quote:
13.7 Anti Roll (Sway) Bars
Front anti-roll (sway) bars:

Substitution, addition or removal of any front anti-roll bars is permitted.
Substitution, addition or removal of anti-roll bars may serve no other purpose than that of an anti-roll bar.
The use of any bushing material is permitted.
No modification to the body, frame or other components to accommodate anti-roll bar addition or substitution is allowed, except for the drilling of holes for mounting bolts. Non-standard lateral members which connect between the brackets for the bar are not permitted.

Rear anti-roll (sway) bars:
May not be removed, replaced, or modified in any way.
[This message has been edited by Greg Sharpe (edited May 19, 2001).]
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Old 05-19-2001, 06:07 AM   #21
wac
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Have a Nice Day?

Apologies for the confusion (my computer died, so I didn't have a chance to confirm the rules last night). I guess I had thought that removing the front bar was allowed, but not the other way (i.e., addition of a front bar). Once again, sorry for the confusion.

I've measured the stock front bar at 19mm.

-WaC
Wayne

Edit: front bar measurement.

[This message has been edited by wac (edited May 19, 2001).]
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Old 05-19-2001, 06:22 AM   #22
KC
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Talked to tire rack this morning=. They said the hoosiers are generally a little wider than 225's and recommend a 7.0" rim or more for their 225's. So, I CAN'T use the hoosiers. Grrrrr.

OK, 4 Kumho's please. Oh by the way, it's now $200 less.

--kC
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Old 05-19-2001, 07:43 AM   #23
Pilot
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Cool

Holy cow! I hide in the shop to do my alignment and look what happens!

Greg,
Ok very interesting, I thought that would be the case.

KC,
In our previous discussion the thought was that a large portion of the RSs understeer was due to camber loss with body roll (soft springs bars and shocks) and folks were looking for a way to stay in stock class and improve performance. Looks like a larger front bar will help because it helps ot maintain camber better. All other things being equal (meaning a Porsche) a larger front bar would increase understeer. Greg's experiment when he finally gets it to an autoX will prove the final point. (which is of course that the RS has terrible body control.)

OK then, Greg your next task is to autoX that sucker.
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Old 05-19-2001, 11:17 AM   #24
Greg Sharpe
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YES SIR! At this rate though, KC will get it done before me. Whomever it is, I'm curious to see the end result too.
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Old 05-21-2001, 09:38 AM   #25
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OK everythings coming together now...

Got my 2nd set of rims yesterday.
Kumho Victoracers will be in Wed/Thur
22mm front Whiteline will also be in Wed/Thur
Fri/Sat - Install bar, mount tires and set up alignment. Hey Pilot... Friday or preferrable Sat.. you guys busy?
Sunday - Auto-X.

I'll keep ya posted.

--kC

[This message has been edited by KC (edited May 21, 2001).]
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