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Old 05-31-2004, 07:52 PM   #51
HoRo1
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Quote:
Originally posted by OnTheGas
Yes, Rubens turned into Takuma . . .
Where is it written in rules of racing that just because somebody is trying to overtake, the guy in front should let him through? Where is it written that when overtaking is done it is the job of the driver being passed to make sure that he is clear to turn in for a corner? A clean pass is the responsibility of the driver trying to make the pass. Sato was guilty of major brain fade.
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Old 05-31-2004, 08:26 PM   #52
artkevin
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OnTheGas,
The mirror argument goes to prove my point. Every car on the grid requiers the driver to physically turn his head to the side to look into his mirros even more so in the f2004. Rubens head never looked to his right to see his mirror at all when Sato came down on him. Sato never even locked up his breaks nor did Rubens. They both took natural lines into the corner but I don't think Sato was as kamakzee as most people are making it out to be. This all shows me that Rubens did not even know that Sato was attempting a pass.
I rewatched the post race interview and liseted to Woobins coments. I think he was miss quoted on fl-live.com due to english being his 2nd langauge. I think he said "I saw his noise" not "I saw his nose". I think he was saying that he heard the Honda but I still believe that if he actually saw the white car he would have widened his line to avoid the collision. I could be wrong though.
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Old 05-31-2004, 09:11 PM   #53
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I don't know about the whole mirror thing. I think that if somebody is coming out of the pits, unless they are racing for that position (Webber wasn't), I just don't see any reason to stuff the race leader coming up with a full head of steam. I don't think it's as much mirrors as Webber having some notion of wanting to show somebody something. He even said, post-race, something to the effect of "We all have our own races to attend to, and I would do it again tomorrow."

But Speed showed the replay, and Schumacher was alongside and slightly in front of Webber as the latter exited the pits, and Webber just drove across the track, to take his racing line. Panis did the same thing to Schumacher earlier in the race, which does make you wonder if Schumacher could have used a bit more patience in dealing with the backmarkers.

And I just watched the race again, putting it onto a DVD, and Sato screwed up. Period. I just don't think that a driver in front is supposed to alter his line to account for a crazy move by a guy coming up from behind. I do think that Barrichello didn't realize Sato was there, because drivers just don't expect idiocy, so they don't account for it. So Rubens took his normal racing line, and Sato drove into him. It was an amateurish move, particularly when Sato had the faster car. Circumspection would have gotten him a better shot at the position. I'm with HoRo on this one. You pass if there's room, but the guy you're trying to pass isn't supposed to make room for you.

Sato is quickly becoming the enfant terrible of F1. He bumps Schumacher after jumping the start at Monaco, and made a pretty crazy move going into the first corner in Sunday's race. He reminds me of the drivers we all encounter in our daily tasks, who presume that it is the job of the rest of the world to watch out for them.

Alonso was the driver behind Raikkonen, who was driving the wheels off that car. There were a couple of times that Alonso got within a car length, then Raikkonen would stretch it out again. Great driving from the very talented Finn. Bummer about the car.

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Old 05-31-2004, 10:25 PM   #54
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I also heard Rubens' comment as "I saw his noise". I don't have first hand experience on what you can hear and not hear when driving an F1 car though. I just think that he knew Sato was back there, but correctly thought that he was way too far back to sanely overtake on that corner.

That was a silly move by Sato, he was way too far inside and on the brakes way too hard, way too late. There was no room for him in there, and Rubens should not have been expected to leave him room. Nope.

I think Sato's adrenaline gets the better of him sometimes and even his team admits that he is often guilty of overdriving the car. I think David Richards is covering for him to the public this time, but frustrated at him behind the scenes.

Part of me also wonders is Sato's "race day red-mist" is somewhat responsible for his engine problems (when compared to Button). The team would surely know this, but perhaps Sato simply does not treat his engine as smoothly as JB does.


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Old 05-31-2004, 10:55 PM   #55
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Now while I am no BAR team mechanic, I have to agree with the race commentators when they said that todays F1 engines are all computer controlled so the driver can't blow the engine anymore. The computer prevents that.

With regard to Takuma amd his pass. He may have been a bit ambitious with that move but I applaud it, I jumped from the couch when I saw him go for it, so if anything it deffo made it exciting. Dave Richards also applauded the move saying:

"He is a motor racing driver, what do you expect him to do - slow down and wave people by"
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Old 06-01-2004, 10:23 AM   #56
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I chalk up alot, if not most, race speed incidents (leaving safety car incidents out ) to the adrenalin induced, heart-rate affected, frenetic, violent and literally split-second decision making that todays F1 Drivers are faced with.

No excuses here, just a fact.....things are happening so fast, and driver's concentration is razor edge....It's not like Webber is merging on to an interstate from a rest area.....

Takumo Sato.....I like him....I think he's a bit brash, but these guys HAVE to think like that...that's how they keep there seats...you don't go taking out the other guy or yourself in a moronic move a la Villeneuve...but you gotta think these guys believe they can pull off a move if they're trying it.

I've been reading all 3 of Steve Matchetts' books. They are incredibly interesting, quite enlightening...and I recommend them to anyone who's interested in behind the scenes happenings of grand-prix racing in the modern era. I'm not suggesting these will make anyone an expert, but I must say I am stunned at how ignorant I am about F1 from the inside.

BriDrive, a neutral F1 fan..................
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Old 06-01-2004, 12:10 PM   #57
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Default Re: 3 races in a row, a F2004 driver turns in to someone else!

Just to follow up on...
Quote:
Originally posted by OnTheGas
...I would place more of the blame on the designers of the F2004. The mirrors on the F2004 are significantly farther back from the front of the car, (for aerodynamic reasons as it creates cleaner airflow around the cockpit area). The mirrors appear to be located rather wide out in the driver's line of sight. A Ferrari team member mentioned to the AtlasF1's Grapevine columnist that it is very difficult for the driver to use those mirrors due to their location in relation to the cockpit.
I noticed that I had missed another point that he made which is that the mirrors are also very low...

Here is a brief quote from the article...
Quote:
AtlasF1's Dieter Rencken
...the mirrors in the F2004 are sited so far back and so low as to be basically useless - not this column's take on the matter, but that of a Ferrari man, who admitted as much in Imola whilst explaining that sitting there, almost in line with, but way below, Michael's eyes, they cause minimum disruption of air flowing to, over and around the critical cockpit area, which, in turn, funnels air upwards to the mid-mounted aerofoil, and backwards to the all-important winglets and rear wing planes. In fact, Ferrari's Monaco press release contains a picture showing the mirrors to be virtually flush with the air intake surfaces.
Pics illustrating his point can be found at Motorsport.com's F1 pic gallery, and I'm sure elsewhere, too. The article in AtlasF1 showed a single pic, that was a split frame showing the F2003 and F2004 side by side (from Ferrari's studio shots of each car's formal introduction). The F2004 mirrors are significantly lower. Other pics show them to be wider as well.
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Old 06-01-2004, 12:53 PM   #58
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Yeah, it seems that it is a dangerously large effort to peak in the mirrors of the F2004.
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...reverse_order=

It was totally Takuma's fault though. Just too impatient. I wonder if the engine would have lasted? Oh well.
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Old 06-01-2004, 03:05 PM   #59
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Good race, basically the normal affair, with a few very ambitious moves.

The start was pretty much the highlight of the race, and Sato made a wicked outbraking move down the inside of the first corner. I swear he could not have been more than an inch from the back of MS's wing, but pulled it off cleanly so well done to him.

Not so well done by Montoya, who is seemingly incapable of staying out of trouble. Despite his attempt to place blame on Barrichello and Panis, this was in my eyes nothing more than Montoya trying to make up for his poor grid position by passing the entire field at the first corner.

He locked up badly and understeered straight into Ralf, then catching out poor old daMatta who was an innocent bystander. The part that really blows my mind is, as I have already alluded to, that once again JPM is blaming this on everybody and anybody BUT HIMSELF!!!!!!!!!! I'm going to the race in Montreal; I wonder if he will try to blame me for whatever incident he's involved in up there!!!

Schumacher has already thanked Kimi for holding up the field for the first few laps, so from there the result was set in stone.

Sato's move on Barrichello was over ambitious. He was a good 2 car lenghts back and while he had been lundging into turn one all day, he clearly had no way to making the turn without using RB as a rumble strip.

Sorry OTG but I'm not buying the mirror theory. Sato was far enough back that RB didn't think he was in position to attempt a pass (which he wasn't) so Rubens was more focused on the hairpin approaching at 300kph than what might be happening in his mirrors. Can't blame him there.

It has been suggested that Sato's engine may have failed because of the 17 second pit stop he made to replace his nose cone. Overall I hope that Sato learns from this mistake and is a better judge of his oppertunities in the future. I have no problem with him trying to go for a long shot, as long as it doesn't keep happening. Calk this up to youthfull exuberance.

I'm starting to wonder if Button has lost the plot a bit. He has been scoring points, but has been pretty well outclassed by his teammate 2 weeks in a row. Just on the basis of experience alone I'd expect JB to be outpacing Sato, but TS has been more than a match lately. It will be interesting to see if Jenson can respond, or is Sato the real thing?
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Old 06-02-2004, 08:27 AM   #60
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This race was actually kind of exciting, even though you knew no one would catch MS.

Button was complaining about a lack of grip in qualifying i believe, so maybe his car was not set up as well as Sato's? Sato was fast, and has been occasionally in the past (Suzuka with the Jordan some time ago), but he's not consistent nor does he have enough self control. Fact is JB has podiumed way more and knows how to score the points. Watching Sato screw up is pretty exciting though.
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Old 06-02-2004, 01:27 PM   #61
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I only have one thing to add about JPM:

You know its bad when my sweet little wife (who is NOT into autoracing all that much, but watches with me just to be sporting), remarks after a JPM interview: "That guy whines like a little bitch!"
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Old 06-02-2004, 04:15 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by shrieden
Now while I am no BAR team mechanic, I have to agree with the race commentators when they said that todays F1 engines are all computer controlled so the driver can't blow the engine anymore. The computer prevents that.

But ... upshifts are fully manual this season (they were automatic in 2003).

I'm sure the team can see (and knows) exactly what Sato is doing, but part of me just has a hard time pegging his engine reliability all down to bad luck.

His long, unplanned for pitstop may have had some effect, but I'm still under the (possibly false) impression that he's a bit harder on his engine than Button.

...just my uninformed opinion.

FCTi
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