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Old 01-13-2006, 01:49 PM   #201
ataac_flat04
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Keep in mind this is ~100 octane fuel. That allows you to run a little more lean than you would be able to on pump (91/93), kinda like race fuel would. Have fun with it, experiment and see what your car likes. -Chuck
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Old 01-13-2006, 02:16 PM   #202
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This is still exciting to watch .
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Old 01-13-2006, 03:07 PM   #203
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Kinda like doing open heart surgery over the telephone... -Chuck
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Old 01-13-2006, 03:08 PM   #204
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I can't wait until this semester of school is over for me...by then our FSAE car will be running off of E85 and I will be done with my High performance internal combustion engine class (AE477)...
I will have lots to add by then I'm sure
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Old 01-13-2006, 04:21 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ataac_flat04
Kinda like doing open heart surgery over the telephone... -Chuck
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Old 01-13-2006, 11:02 PM   #206
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Unhappy Almost Pointless

Just got back from my next closest station, Citgo in Annapolis MD 21 miles from home, the super was $2.38 the E85 was $2.99 a F**KEN gallon. I still put it in, I was there so what the hell. Added a little gas bringing my mixture to about 88% E85 in my tank, had to add more fuel to my map of course.
So far it cost more then premium the two places closest to me, but my car does really like the stuff. How can I get another station closer to me to carry it? There has to be some sort of tax break for stations carrying the stuff.
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Old 01-14-2006, 01:11 AM   #207
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There are tax breaks for E85. Problem is that fuel grade ethanol is being traded like a gasoline subtitute commodity. Because it is basically supplimenting gasoline is some places to keep the supply of gasoline from drying up.

The other problem is that the gas stations are probably practicing price gouging to get in on the public sympathy of people who want to stop relying on middle eastern oils.

Also, I don't think there are any ethanol refineries near Maryland so its all probably being trucked in. Adding to the cost.
http://www.ethanolrfa.org/industry/locations/
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Old 01-14-2006, 06:02 AM   #208
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Nice to see a few more folks are playing around with this stuff. Sorry haven't been watching this thread as closely as I should.

Just to correct a couple things.

First the best way to tune if you have the capability is with an AFR meter set on Lambda (or equivalence ratio if available). The correction factor is

1.5 x true alchohol AFR = Gasoline calibrated meter reading AFR

So for an E85 mixture of 9.765 :1 (which is stoich for E85) you would look for a gasoline calibrated meter reading of 14.7. The actual correction factor going from E85 to gasoline numbers is 1.5054, but 1.5 x is close enough.

If your going from the (actual) AFR for E85 and want to get to the equivalent gasoline number you would divide the E85 actual AFR by .66.

Confusing I know. As mentioned above you can use the gasoline numbers if you keep in mind what they represent. Both gasoline and E85 will develop max power at about 25% rich of stoich mixture to about 15% rich of stoich . That is about 11.8 - 12.7 AFR on gasoline. If your running pure E85 and showing a 12.5 mixture you are 25% rich of stoich. E85 is supposed to produce max torque at +40%.

I had mine tuned so it showed an AFR on a gasoline calibrated wideband of 11.3. If you divide 11.3 by the gasoline stoich ratio of 14.7 you get 0.7687. That is the Lambda of the above number, if you multiply that 0.7687 by the stoich for E85 (9.765) then you see your true AFR is 7.506.

It is much easier to work with either Lambda or equivalence ratio but gasoline numbers will work if you must as long as you understand what they represent. They show how rich or lean you would be on gasoline from its stoich AFR of 14.7.

The oft quotes max power number for gasoline of 12.5:1 = 17.6% rich of stoich on gasoline. If you look at the chart that is the equivalence ratio.

Hope that helps.


On a gasoline calibrated wide band:
Max power rich on 100% E85 would be lambda of 0.714 x the gasoline stoich or 10.496, Max power lean would be Lambda 0.870 x the gasoline stoich or 12.789.

Tune between those two numbers and you should be good to go. Like all racing experimentation, go slowly and take small baby steps. No point in killing the engine because you make a simple math goof.

Larry
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Old 01-16-2006, 11:58 PM   #209
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Bump! Anthing new?
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Old 01-17-2006, 10:12 AM   #210
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I noticed E85 doesn't like cold weather too much since the temperatures dropped below freezing. Starts just fine, but then it acts like it's going to die. Revving up to 2,000 rpms for 2 minutes solves the problem. Also if the motor has not warmed up for a good long time it will knock like crazy at WOT.
Speaking of crazy, you are driving me crazy with these AFR Larry! Crazy because I don't want to blow up my motor again, but then I could always use a nice new 2.5L built motor.
You said you have your car tuned at 11.7 AFR, but at what RPM. What I need is some sort of AFR @ RPM chart to really help me out. If your up to it.

Here is something to start with if you REALLY feel like helping me out, and the rest of us.
My AFR Table cvs file format.
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Old 01-17-2006, 01:58 PM   #211
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The Torquechip II I had in there gave me a flat 11.3:1 - 11.5:1 in open loop so no rpm info necessary. The new reflash I have not logged yet on E85 as I'm getting baseline info on gasoline.

Sorry I know that's not much help.

E85 is a high enough octane fuel you should be able to run a nearly flat AFR in open loop unless your running pretty high boost. Engines are most prone to detonation at the rpm range near torque peak so that would be the first area you would want to richen up if you needed to.

Larry
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Old 01-19-2006, 10:19 AM   #212
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Bump!
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Old 01-23-2006, 11:20 AM   #213
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I am almost maxing out my 800cc injectors, got them running up to 97%. Must be the cold weather? Normal gas they would go up to 68%.
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Old 01-23-2006, 02:43 PM   #214
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How's it behaving?
What's your boost level?
Where are your AFR's?
....ready to back off the boost a bit and play with timing?

....how do you like it?
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Old 01-24-2006, 11:07 PM   #215
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Behaving GREAT! Knocks a little when it's real cold out, but never more then 1 knock count.

Boost is 20ish by 4,300rpms and 17+ @ 8,000. I rarely hit 8,000 rpms.
When I rehook up my water injection I will play with timing.
I don't like it, I love it! Price was finally cheaper then premium by .10. I lost about 40 miles to a tank of gas tho.
My little performance meter said I now have about 40 more HP.
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Old 01-25-2006, 10:14 AM   #216
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edit: How does that 4300rpm spool compare to gasoline? Was gas about 4500? Play with the timing a bit before 4300 and see if you can get better spool. Better combustion off boost or @ low boost makes the transition quicker. My thinking is you've still got plenty of flexibility with fuelling earlier in the rev-band to play with. Better low and midrange timing and fuelling will lower that spool time. Glad to see you making good strides with it .

BTW....post VIDS! Please?

Last edited by HamFist; 01-25-2006 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 02-01-2006, 10:55 AM   #217
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updates?
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Old 02-08-2006, 10:22 AM   #218
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It got real cold last night and car wouldn't stay started unless I kept on the gas for 5 minutes. So I added 4 gallons of gas, now I'm real rich (not money) and lost a lot of power up top. O well.....

As for timing, what I need is a pro tuned map timing to look at. Maybe then I will get even quicker spool up. After I got the V7 STI longblock I lost about 500 rpms of spool up. It's been said the reason is the larger valves and port job the V7 STI heads have. Also the AVCS do nothing to help when your at WOT, only crusing.

BOOGY BOOGY BOOGY BOOGY BOOGY BOOGY BOOGY BOOGY BOOGY BOOGY BOOGY BOOGY BOOGY BOOGY!! Who knows why I just typed this. LOL

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Old 02-08-2006, 03:20 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatray
It got real cold last night and car wouldn't stay started unless I kept on the gas for 5 minutes. So I added 4 gallons of gas, now I'm real rich (not money) and lost a lot of power up top. O well.....
Time to invest in an engine block heater. The Subaru one is only $30 right?
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Old 02-08-2006, 04:17 PM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revision
Time to invest in an engine block heater. The Subaru one is only $30 right?
That won't do much to heat the fuel, which is the problem.
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Old 02-09-2006, 08:50 AM   #221
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I thought about using one of those, too. If this thread proves anything at all, the only way to know for sure is to TRY!
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Old 02-13-2006, 01:47 PM   #222
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I just picked up a set of wrx 440's this weekend. I need a set of RS O-rings now .
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Old 02-15-2006, 08:30 AM   #223
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Subaru engine block heater is designed to plug into the engine block itself and heat up the coolant. Enough residual heat in the block may be enough to get the ethanol to vaporize on extremely cold days.

The downsides are that the heater is designed around 120V so you need an outlet at work to heat the block before going home. And that Subaru instructions suggest that you leave it plugged in for 2 hours to get the block warm.

Another thing you may want to try to improve cold start is to increase the fuel pressure to say 60psi instead of 40psi. Someone posted somewhere that Ethanol vaporizes better at higher pressures. If the car starts, but has trouble staying lit, you may want to increase the cold start fuel enrichment table based on lower coolant temps.
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Old 02-22-2006, 11:03 AM   #224
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This is cool!

NAPA sells multi-fuel compatible rubber fuel line for EFI applications. I verified this with their tech support just now. They sell it in 1/4, 5/16, and 3/8's sizes I believe. This just gets cooler! It's compatible with up to 100% ethanol AND 100% methanol concentrations. It's their STANDARD MPFI fuel line! Our stock subaru fuel line looks to be the same composition but I can't verify that for sure. They look, feel, and smell the same when burned.

A buddy used this fuel line in a Sylvia swap and I noticed that it said "multi-fuel compatible" right on the side of the fuel line. Now I know!

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Old 03-01-2006, 02:01 PM   #225
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Default EPA test

here's some info, the EPA tested a 1.9L VW diesel engine with 19.5:1 Compr ratio used the diesel turbo converted to spark ignition and it all worked. I have no idea what boost levels they were using but still...
Oh, and I thought I should mention that WikiPedia has listed this thread on it's site! Pretty cool if I must say so myself(that's how I found this thread)

If you google E85, and then look for the wikipedia link it has the link for the VW thing and quite a bit more info.. some of which is stated here in this forum... Any way I'll be switching over to E85 in my 1990 Sunbird Turbo soon I'll let you all know how that works out soon!
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