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Old 10-13-2003, 02:38 PM   #1
dcoty
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Default Input needed on my mod list for track season next year.

Hey guys,

Winter is comming soon (for me at least) and i have a little list of things to put on my car this winter to make the car handle better at the track next season (I go every tuesday).

First off, i have horrible understeer, which isnt a big surprise to me, and I want to get rid of it becuase i could be running far better times around the track. Also the KYB are way way too stiff and the car is very unsettled over bumps. Also they have maybe one season left on them.

Anyway, heres my handling lists.

I have on the car now:

KYB AGX/ground control combo
whiteline rear sway bar set on 20mm
WRX rotors w/ stock rs calipers
Porterfield R4s pads

The to do list:

Used DMS 40mm (too $ new)
STi 4 pot front calipers
DBA slotted 2 piece rotors
porterfiend R4s pads
Legacy turbo rear brakes
Whiteline antilift kit
Lachute subaru upper pillow ball mounts (camber adjustable)

So guys, what should I change/add/subtarct form my list? I think it is pretty good, but I would love some input from people whith the same or different setups than this one.

Thanks guys!

Dan
PS: Track rims and tires are also on the list.
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Old 10-13-2003, 02:51 PM   #2
Penphoe
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Dan - did you try playing with your shock dampening settings to get it to handle more crisply? Perhaps your springs are too stiff and you need to get softer ones?

I heard the ALK works wonder for combatting on-throttle understeer since the front end stays planted.

What about tires? What kind of tires are you going to use?

LaterZ!
Darren!!
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Old 10-13-2003, 03:13 PM   #3
dcoty
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I turned the dampening down as much as possible, played with front tire pressures and nothing really worked. Also, the struts on the KYB will need refilling next season becuase they apparently leak after 3 seasons or so, and its about 80$ per strut to refill, so i figured it would be smarter to get a new set of suspension from an excellent brand, rather than refilling the struts and buying new springs etc.

Im glad to hear the ALK will help, I wish I got off my lazy butt and installed them one afternoon and went to the track.

As for tires, i plan on runnng 16 " rims and I want a good track tire and it will only be used for the track. But I dont want to spend tonnes of money on tires, but I do want good ones none the less. Id love a reccomendation though! You have any top choices?

As for rims, Im not sure yet. I need to see pics specs and prices!

But the list looks good so far?

Thanks for the quick reply!

Dan
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Old 10-13-2003, 04:09 PM   #4
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I've heard a lot of negative reviews about the DMS 40's. Do a search here and on Club WRX before you buy them. I have the Tein RA suspension and it put me at the top in my region for autocrossing. I don't know how it would do for road racing.

If you haven't bought a good road racing tire then you have probably overlooked your best mod. A good set of tires will help with the understeer problem some and they will reduce your times by seconds over the stock tires. Your car will also be much more enjoyable to drive with a good set of tires.

Have you had a performance alignment? If not, then that could help your understeer problems quite a bit. Do a search here for "performance alignment" You can also fine tune understeer using rear sway bar and toe settings also. Be careful though, autocross settings will be much different than high speed road racing settings. Your search here will probably not give you much insight into the best road racing settings.

Have your rotors cryo treated and they should last much longer and not warp or crack as easily with the high temps you will see with road racing.

Front wheel bearings can fail quickly due to the high brake tems encountered in road racing. Some teams are using the Krytox grease which has a very high service temperature. Its very expensive but better safe than sorry when you are going 100+ mph.

I would run a good quality synthetic motor oil to help deal with the really high temps your turbo will generate in road racing. Road racing is 10x harder on an engine than autocross because you are loading the engine 100% for most of each lap and for much longer periods of time.

If you have any engine mods you should have a boost and EGT gage to make sure you aren't cooking your engine in the process. Some tuners don't tune for long term loading of the engine which could lead to damaging high temps for any aftermarket ECU applications. Get gages with alarms and peak hold so you can know what's going on in your engine before its too late.
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Old 10-13-2003, 04:14 PM   #5
Patrick Olsen
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My recommendation for good, inexpensive track tires is Kumho V700s, either the original Victoracers or the newer ECSTA V700s. It's what I've used from the start (for auto-x and open track) and I've been very happy with them.

As for the rest of your modifications, my personal suggestion (based on my experience and the experience of a few friends) would be to avoid the DMS 40s like the plague. It's a pretty good suspension, but the reliability just isn't there. Supposedly they've redesigned the struts completely, but I haven't heard any feedback on whether the new ones are "fixed" or not. And if you plan on buying a used setup, you probably won't know whether yours are the original design or the improved design.

For under $1000 (US) you could get a set of Koni inserts and Ground Control coil-over sleeves. You'll get the same adjustability (damping and height), unlimited spring rate options (since GC uses standard 2.5" coil-over springs, unlike DMS' proprietary 70mm springs that only they make and only in certain rates), and IMO better reliability. This is the setup I'm going with - everything is in the garage, just gotta find time to install it all.

Moving on... I'm not sure what Lachute's adjustable top mounts look like, but I think the best ones on the market are the Noltec plates, which have camber and caster adjustability. MacPherson strut cars react very well to positive caster, and guys have reported picking up an additional +1.5deg or so with the Noltec plates. I have Noltec plates waiting to go on the car, too. I already have the ALK installed, I'm really interested to see how much caster I get with both the ALK and the caster maxed out on the Noltec plates.

Last but not least, the Porterfield R4S is a street pad. Are you planning to run the same pads on the street and track? If so, then those are probably a good choice. If you plan to run a track specific pad, then upgrade to the Porterfield R4. They're pretty amazing. I've tried Carbotech Panther Plus and Panther XPs, which are supposed to be better, but IMO the R4 offered more braking power and they were absolutely positively fade-free, regardless of how hard I pounded on the brakes.

Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
Track junkie

PS - You might want to take this conversation to the Motorsports Forum, as there's usually more open tracking discussion there.
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Old 10-13-2003, 04:21 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Silver Bullet 02
Have you had a performance alignment? If not, then that could help your understeer problems quite a bit. Do a search here for "performance alignment" You can also fine tune understeer using rear sway bar and toe settings also. Be careful though, autocross settings will be much different than high speed road racing settings. Your search here will probably not give you much insight into the best road racing settings.
Good point, I forgot to mention that. However, other than camber, I would say (based on my experience) that a good street alignment will do just fine on track. Keep in mind Dan's not actually road racing, where every split second counts, he's just doing track days. So, with that said, zero toe front and rear, -2.5deg camber up front, and as much positive caster (keeping both sides equal) as you can get up front will be a good start. The only thing different I would do on the street is drop the camber back to -1.25 or -1.5deg or so.

Quote:
Originally posted by Silver Bullet 02
Have your rotors cryo treated and they should last much longer and not warp or crack as easily with the high temps you will see with road racing.
I'm still not convinced it really does much, but I've cryo'd my track rotors and they do seem to wear really well, and I haven't warped any.

Quote:
Originally posted by Silver Bullet 02
Front wheel bearings can fail quickly due to the high brake tems encountered in road racing. Some teams are using the Krytox grease which has a very high service temperature.
The only person I've heard of having a problem with this is Gary Sheehan, who obviously is truly road racing. Have any track day junkies reported problems?

Quote:
Originally posted by Silver Bullet 02
I would run a good quality synthetic motor oil to help deal with the really high temps your turbo will generate in road racing. ... If you have any engine mods you should have a boost and EGT gage to make sure you aren't cooking your engine in the process.
Turbo?? Does he have engine mods?? Obviously Silver Bullet 02 has not met the famous dcoty, King of NaturallyAspiratedLand.

Pat
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Old 10-13-2003, 04:32 PM   #7
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I agree with you concerning the alignment settings.

Gary Shehan is the only one I've heard of with the front wheel bearing problems. I don't know anyone locally who does track days or road racing so I was basing my info off of what I heard from Gary. I assume if he is worried about his lap times then he must be maxing out his braking which should produce the high rotor temps that cause bearing grease failure. Just one of those better safe than sorry areas of the car.

Didn't realize he's running a NA car. Sorry bout that. I would still want EGT readings if I had any engine mods.
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Old 10-13-2003, 05:23 PM   #8
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Wow, thsi thread is helping me a lot!

Ok, well, i plan on doing the performance alignment at a good garage I know, my brother had his doen there for his MR2. Good point on that one, very important!

Silver bullet, no worries man! I have yet to install my gauges, but the senders are in, unfortunatly, EGT is not one of them, I plan on getting on in the car to replace my AF gauge. I do have oil press and fuel press. The motor is 11:1 compression, redlines at 8k everything done. Its seen many track days so far and no problems, but i will feel better with my gauges in.

I will use the porterfields as my daily pads, and I have them on the car now and love them, a bit squeaky when cold but I really dont care, i love the pads.

I dont reach speeds over 100 mph, probably around 90 mph, but after that is my hardest braking point (down to 15 mph) for a right hairpin. I havent considered bearing grease failure, but i might not have to worry too much

So no DMS suspension? oh man, i guess I have been mislead, good thing i diddnt order them, what is the major problem with them? what is the best alternative?

Silver bullet- so I guess oyu are happy with your teins? Also what is the adjustability in terms of height our of curiosity? Ride quality? does the car skip over bumps in the track when turning? That is my main problem, a very unsettled car.

Thansk a lot for the replies guys, i hoep I amswered all the questions oyu guys had, and I really appreciate the comments!

Oh, and as for tires, Im willing to spend good money on them for sure, just not pay out the nose for them. I realize how important they are and ill spend a good chunk on them, but not too too too much, you know what i mean?

Dan
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Old 10-14-2003, 09:02 AM   #9
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I agree: Kumho Victoracers (V700 compound) are a great, relatively inexpensive R-compound. They can be flipped and rotated so as to get maximum life from them. Avoid the Ecsta (V70A compound) or you will be sorry. They are grappier than the V700 but suffer from the 'groove of death'. Google that phrase and see what comes back.

Koni inserts on Prodrive, STI, or SPT springs are great if you don't want coilovers (I didn't). I also run Cusco camber plates on my Koni/Prodrive combo and they work well. Certain corners at Road Atlanta benefit greatly from the increased negative camber that can be obtained.

WRT braking, my big enemy is heat. I am going to have to fabricate some ducting. I got rid of pad fade (finally) by going to a better pad and larger surface area rotor. Unfortunately, all that heat is now cracking my rotors. Man, you fix one thing and something else breaks.

Other than that, it's all about seat time, seat time, seat time.

Enjoy it!

Scott
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Old 10-14-2003, 10:29 AM   #10
Silver Bullet 02
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Quote:
Originally posted by dcoty
Wow, thsi thread is helping me a lot!

...Silver bullet- so I guess oyu are happy with your teins? Also what is the adjustability in terms of height our of curiosity? Ride quality? does the car skip over bumps in the track when turning? That is my main problem, a very unsettled car....

Dan
Dan,

The ride is rough on the Tein RA's. Not exactly what I like for a daily driver but I don't drive my WRX most days. It is set up for autocross racing. The spring rates are something like 446 lb/in front and 336 lb/in rear. I don't have any problems with skipping. My guess is that problem has more to do with not having springs and dampers matched properly so you aren't keeping the tire on the gound as well as you could. Most road race cars have stiffer springs than I'm running. I think the Subaru Rally car tarmac springs are in the 600 lb/in range up front.

Tein usa has a chart that lists ride height ranges. From what I can tell the front can be lowered 1.8 to 3 inches. The rear can be lowered 0.7 to 2 inches. Recommended height is -2.3 front and -1.8 rear.

The Tein RA setup knocked a lot of time off my autocross runs. I went from being in the top 30% in raw times last year (stock suspension) to being in the top 5% (average 120 drivers per event) this year. I even got the fastest fendered time of the day at one event this year that had 150 drivers and I'm only running around 220 whp. That says a lot about the handling of my car. The Tein suspension and a driving school had a lot to do with the improvement. My point is that if you want to go fast then the Tein RA suspension will help you with that goal.

So, if you want performance more than ride comfort and the price is okay for you then the RA suspension will most likely totally transform your car on the track. If you want something a little more daily driverish then Koni inserts and Ground Controls will do fine and still transform your car. I would recommend getting rear springs that are at least 80-100% of the front spring rate. That will give the car more neutral handling without having to really stiffen the rear sway bar or add toe out to the rear. 80% would probably be okay for a road car. 100% would be better for an autocross car. The guy who won STX at the Solo II nationals this year had around 446 lb/in up front and 560 lb/in at the rear, that is, the rear rate was 125% of the front rate.

Whatever you decide to do, make sure the springs and dampers are matched to one another. Otherwise you will keep skipping along as you are now. Also, I don't know what body car you have but if its not stiff enough that can cause skipping. The 02 WRX doesn't really benefit much from strut tower bars but some of the older body styles may, I'm not sure.

Last edited by Silver Bullet 02; 10-14-2003 at 10:36 AM.
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Old 10-14-2003, 12:59 PM   #11
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Dan, I'm going to diverge from some of the opinions here. If you built your car up like this, I think you've had some bad advise. I would also ask how much track experience you have based on the equipment and your unersteering issues. Seems your car should be almost uncontrollably oversteering. First, I'll give you the setup that worked best for my 01 RS running legal in COM Street Stock class:

Front 4 pots with STOCK WRX rotors. Wilwood exp600 (627F) fluid and stock rubber lines. Home fabricated 3" brake ducting coming from behind the fog lights (removed on track days). Dust shields removed and ducts split into 2 with 1 going between the spindle and caliper and other on the front side of the spindle aiming right at the center of the rotor. Not easy to construct, but well worth it.

Rear: H6 caliper brackets and rotors. Dust shields removed.

Tokiko/Bridgestone struts (make AGX feel like marshmellows)

Tein Medium race springs (about 50% stiffer than stock, lower 1.5").

Alignment for maximum camber w/o crash bolts or top plates. zero toe front and back.

The car was completely controllable. I could induce oversteer or understeer with car control and throttle inputs. I ran both Azenis and 032R's at different times.

With your car, I would: Perhaps go the the Eibach pro kit springs. Not as stiff or low as the Teins, but you're already complaining that they're too stiff. Keep the AGX's or replace with new, if they aren't working well.

Do the brakes as I have.

Set your rear sway at 18.

Set your pressures at 38F 34R. I didn't see you say exactly what tires you're using, and that's very important. If you're using R compound or Azenis or S03 or MX or T1S or Pilot Cups, then I'm worried a bit. If you're on something like RE-92's then there's hope.

Lose that ALK.

Get some Carbotech pads. Us New England guys compare notes a lot and these are the only pads that get unanimous thumbs up.

For your wheels, buy an extra set of RS wheels. Put some 215-45-16 Azenis on them. They won't be as sticky as an R compound, but will easily clear (even with 1.5" drop) and will last forever (mine did 14 track days and 13k miles). They're predictable on the track and won't self destruct (like MX's will). Run the fluid and pressures I mentioned above.

If you go this route, you can do it for very little money and have an awesome setup. My car, set up like this with some minor weight reductions and a ram air intake would run even with E30 M3's and stock WRX's. I'm an instructor running with other instructors, so it's not a matter of me staying with newbies. The car outhandled WRX's in corners big time (gained 6 car lengths into turn 6 at NHIS) and only suffered from the low power on the straight sections.

Good luck....you've got an excellent base car. I only wish I kept mine

jack
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Old 10-14-2003, 01:29 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jack ffr1846
Dan, I'm going to diverge from some of the opinions here. If you built your car up like this, I think you've had some bad advise....jack
Jack,

My experience, as I indicated, is based in autocross. I also mentioned that road race settings are different due to higher speeds and much slower transitions.

As far as oversteer goes, I wish my car had a little more of it. Hence the advice for stiffer rear/front spring ratios. The Subaru rally car tarmac setup uses a stiffer rear/front ratio than the stock USA spec WRX also as do the Japanese STi springs. I would assume this is to make the car handle more neutral. Even with my autocross setup I've never had any issues with excessive oversteer even at higher speeds I.E. 70mph turns. I'm sure it would be squirrelly in a high speed chicane but I'm confident that one notch lower on the rear sway bar and neutral rear toe would be a good starting point for my car to be a competitive road car.

I would be interested in hearing which advice you thought was bad and your reasons for thinking it is bad. I am by no means a road racing expert but I don't think I gave any bad advice unless something I said was taken out of context (I.E. taking autocross info as advice for a road race setup).
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Old 10-14-2003, 01:49 PM   #13
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Silver....

I did not mean to imply that advice in this thread was necessarily bad.....but the conglomeration of mods on the car combined with the "to do" list rang some major bells in my head.

I'd rather not point to any individule component as "bad" here...but would in a PM. I don't want to piss off advertisers who make great products when used appropriately.

jack
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Old 10-14-2003, 01:54 PM   #14
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Sure... PM me. I would like to hear your thoughts.
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Old 10-14-2003, 11:24 PM   #15
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If I had a GC8 that I tracked I would be looking very hard at the STi tarmac setup (struts/springs) ~ 275 ft lbs front/rear w/ damping to match. The plus side is these are actually fairly streetable as well (from a good source) pimarily due to some well designed progressive winds.

Agreed on the RS rims, relatively light (~ 16.5 lbs) clear many of the popular four pots.

Get good rotors- I'm running DBA two piece ones, they work well. From talking to Steve (DBA) cryoing is a good option for track use.

I also like the H6 rear setup- shifts a little bias to the rear- less wiggly/diving when braking. I found out too late that DBA makes a slotted heat treated version of these, next time.

Pads- carbotech gets high marks from everything I've read. I'm running Ferodo 2500's- good crossover pad. The 3000's would be a better track pad.

I've also come up w/ my own ducting system, nice particualrily when running w/ oe size rotors.

Alignment- the Noltec caster/camber plates are a very worthwhile investment, as Pat stated ~ 1.5 degrees of positive caster available w/ a smidge over a degree of additional camber.

I ran DMS 40's- great when they worked (spring rates a little low for track work), but I also had major issues w/ them- maybe they've worked them out (maybe not).

Big Sky
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Old 10-15-2003, 10:30 AM   #16
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BigSky... when you say STi tarmac setup you aren't referring to the rally car tarmac setup... right? I'm pretty sure the rally car tarmac setup uses rates in the 600 lb/in range.

I've heard a lot of good about the Noltec plates. I think Ground Control may be coming out with a caster/camber plate that allows you to adjust them independently. That would be nice for the guys who change camber settings for track days then switch back for street driving. I don't know if they are out for the WRX yet though.
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Old 10-15-2003, 01:46 PM   #17
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I tracked my car last season a bit, but this season it was almost weekly and i did a solo 1 event (I was within 1 second of a stock wrx with track tires over 4 laps). I have also done a racing course with skip barber before this. My car does understeer very very badly and I did ruin a tire becuase of it. The car is my daily driver, but stiff suspension feels better than soft suspension to me so that wont be a big issue. I want a car that is fine for the street and competitive on the track. As for tires, what have people been most happy with on a 16" rim?

Im going to stick with the sti 4 pots and dba rotors (they are ordered anyway) and I fugure the H6 rear brake set up is a good combination.

I would like progressive springs, but I also would like coilovers as well. Its nice to be able to raise my car in the winter here. In case I diddnt mention, this is my daily driver.

Im going to stick with the R4s pads since I absolutely love them and they are fine for street use.

Now, what are the exact issues with the DMS suspension? Tein seems like a good option right now, but I woudl have loved a set of DMS but it seems like thay are bad options but I still dont know why.

Anyway, I really appreciate the replies, Im just want to get things in order before winter so I can plan all this out along with the new inatke manifold Im building with my brother for the car.

Thanks everyone!

Dan
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Old 10-15-2003, 01:59 PM   #18
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You should do a search on the DMS 40's.

If I recall they had problems with the seals failing prematurely because they couldn't handle road grime. I think they added an extra o-ring to act as a wiper but I've not seen any objective reviews since that came out. I've also seen some pictures of them looking very rusted after just a short time. If I'm not mistaken, the 40's also weren't really great performers. The 50's have a lot of good reviews though.

My Tein RA's have been on most of the year and still look and perform like new. They are stiff but very high quality and awesome in the performance department. I tried the STi lowering springs with custom valved Koni shocks from Cobb Tuning before the Tein's and that suspension was much better than stock but not even in the same ball park as the Tein RA suspension.

If you track your car almost weekly then cryo treating your next set of new rotors is probably something you want to do. You should never cryo treat used rotors by the way. It just makes the cracks worse. I've heard of extended life anywhere from 50% extra to 300% extra. I've also read that all the NASCAR teams use cryo treated rotors to prolong life and reduce cracking and warping. There is one cryo shop that actually stocks rotors for most cars so you just order your rotors from them and they will ship them right to you. No extra shipping charges that way. Unfortunately I don't remember the name of the shop but a quick Google search should turn it up for you.

I use Falken Azenis for a street tire. They are the best bang for the buck for a street tire class autocross tire. They drop off with high temps though so my guess is that they aren't the best street/road race tire. I've heard a lot of good things about some of Toyo's tires for road racing. I don't road race though so I will just leave it there. I do know that tires are one of the most important factors when it comes to track performance; autocross or road track.
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Old 10-15-2003, 02:04 PM   #19
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From some of the research I did, the DMS 40's had seals in the struts that went badly very quickly, causing a binding in the rear shocks, making the car bouncy.

I didn't have them, don't know anybody that did (other than Big Sky), but thats what I recall.

After reading the thread, I second the notion of good tires.

tcc
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