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Old 02-22-2014, 11:07 AM   #276
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In that case, maybe you do have an intake leak and the elevated dirt is causing the wear like BS said. Hopefully, it's not something major.

-Dennis
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Old 02-23-2014, 12:28 AM   #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Villalobosj View Post
2013 wrx torqued performance stage 1.
90% of my driving is 5 miles or less. I live close to work, so during the week I don't drive much. Just wanting to make sure my viscosity/protection is still there. I'm only at 1500 miles on this oil change.
i wouldnt go more than 3k miles on a change if you are doing such short trips

short trips like that are the worst thing you can do to an engine...
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Old 02-27-2014, 07:43 PM   #278
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i wouldnt go more than 3k miles on a change if you are doing such short trips short trips like that are the worst thing you can do to an engine...
I know, but what other choice do I have. That might be the only con to leaving that close to your work. I mean, the temp gauge never gets past the second hash mark!! I used to live 25 miles from work which was a 45+ minute commute each way. I will gladly perform more frequent oil changes/services than going back to my old commute.
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Old 02-28-2014, 01:08 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Villalobosj View Post
I know, but what other choice do I have. That might be the only con to leaving that close to your work. I mean, the temp gauge never gets past the second hash mark!! I used to live 25 miles from work which was a 45+ minute commute each way. I will gladly perform more frequent oil changes/services than going back to my old commute.
i would likely find an alternate way to get to work

even a ****ing moped would be better
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Old 02-28-2014, 07:54 PM   #280
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i would likely find an alternate way to get to work even a ****ing moped would be better
I guess I should've bought a Tesla
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Old 02-28-2014, 08:01 PM   #281
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i would likely find an alternate way to get to work even a ****ing moped would be better
I should have bought a Tesla! Hehehe... I just hit 2k since the last oil change, so I think I will send a sample in to see.
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Old 03-07-2014, 12:11 AM   #282
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Didn't change the oil, but I sampled it to see how the TBN is doing. I plan on running it out to 7,500 mi. Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 w/OEM Subaru blue filter.

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Old 03-07-2014, 08:24 AM   #283
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Didn't change the oil, but I sampled it to see how the TBN is doing. I plan on running it out to 7,500 mi. Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 w/OEM Subaru blue filter.
I'm really impressed by the TBN and viscosity retention. Amazing how much better a .48 mPa higher HTHS and 1 cst higher viscosity holds up over the regular M1 5W-30.

In summer I would be tempted to top this up with ESP 5W-40.

-Dennis
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Old 03-07-2014, 10:36 AM   #284
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I'm really impressed by the TBN and viscosity retention. Amazing how much better a .48 mPa higher HTHS and 1 cst higher viscosity holds up over the regular M1 5W-30.

In summer I would be tempted to top this up with ESP 5W-40.

-Dennis
Thanks, I'm really happy with how it turned out. I mostly drive with a light foot, and the car is stock so I'm sure that helps with viscosity. I'll have to try topping off with the 5w40
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Old 03-11-2014, 02:47 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by wrx12tt View Post
Didn't change the oil, but I sampled it to see how the TBN is doing. I plan on running it out to 7,500 mi. Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 w/OEM Subaru blue filter.
Sorry to be slow replying to this thread. I just returned from a three week trip to Japan. What the heck time is it any way?

Looks like a great report. Excellent KV100 and TBN retention. If the TBN does in fact stabilize in the 1.5-2.5 range for a long time, M1 ESP may be a long-drain oil after all. Medium drain at the very least.

You're following basically the same regimen I'm planning for my M1 ESP fill, though you accumulate miles much faster than I do. I've got a new video inspection camera that I've already stuck down the oil fill neck (very clean) and I'm planning to put down the intake at the 60k service. Should be interesting to see if there's much residue from the GC/RT6 and Redline the car has seen to this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post
I'm really impressed by the TBN and viscosity retention. Amazing how much better a .48 mPa higher HTHS and 1 cst higher viscosity holds up over the regular M1 5W-30.

In summer I would be tempted to top this up with ESP 5W-40.

-Dennis
I don't think the initial viscosity has much to do with it, I actually think the shear stability is a conscious design decision on Mobil's part. I haven't been able to discern why they choose high shear stability in some formulations and low stability in others, but the consistency in results for different formulations seems to indicate they are choosing on purpose. For instance M1 AFE 0w30 is very shear stable in my dad's Outback 3.6R, while M1 AFE 0w20 isn't very shear stable at all in my Honda Civic R18. Every AFE 0w20 UOA I've seen shows pretty poor shear stability while all the AFE 0w30 UOAs show good stability.
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Old 03-11-2014, 05:38 PM   #286
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Sorry to be slow replying to this thread. I just returned from a three week trip to Japan. What the heck time is it any way?

Looks like a great report. Excellent KV100 and TBN retention. If the TBN does in fact stabilize in the 1.5-2.5 range for a long time, M1 ESP may be a long-drain oil after all. Medium drain at the very least.

You're following basically the same regimen I'm planning for my M1 ESP fill, though you accumulate miles much faster than I do. I've got a new video inspection camera that I've already stuck down the oil fill neck (very clean) and I'm planning to put down the intake at the 60k service. Should be interesting to see if there's much residue from the GC/RT6 and Redline the car has seen to this point.
Nice, that must have been fun. I've been to Asia a few times, and it's rough coming back and getting used to North American time again.

I had the TAN done as well, and it came back at 2.2. IIRC, I've read on a forum somewhere this oil is used in VWs for 10k+ intervals. Not sure on this though or if it's diesel vs. gas....If this is marketed in the EU as "Fully Synthetic" this would have to be a Group IV/V PAO/Ester based oil, no?

Post some screenshots/video of it when you do. It'd be interesting to see for sure.

Last edited by wrx12tt; 03-11-2014 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 03-12-2014, 02:59 AM   #287
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Nice, that must have been fun. I've been to Asia a few times, and it's rough coming back and getting used to North American time again.

I had the TAN done as well, and it came back at 2.2. IIRC, I've read on a forum somewhere this oil is used in VWs for 10k+ intervals. Not sure on this though or if it's diesel vs. gas....If this is marketed in the EU as "Fully Synthetic" this would have to be a Group IV/V PAO/Ester based oil, no?

Post some screenshots/video of it when you do. It'd be interesting to see for sure.
In Europe VW both gas and diesel VW cars with oil life monitors go at least 10,000 miles on this oil, and up to 30,000 miles (!). See Liqui-Moly's page on their equivalent Top Tec 4200. In the US VW has waffled on use of 504 oils in gassers. I haven't followed the sordid details, but my understanding is that owners manuals starting in ~2006 allowed 502 and 504 oils, but 504 was removed in ~2009, only to be re-introduced in ~2012. There was some informed speculation that either Ethanol or higher sulfur levels in US fuel were causing rapid TBN depletion. Apparently though, 504 oils are back on the menu for US gassers now. US diesel cars since 2009 have all required 507 oil.

It's only Germany where synthetic = PAO + Ester, not all of Europe. Don't put much stock in that, it's an antiquated German government labeling requirement. GTL Group III base stocks are among the very best available, and given the NOACK of M1 ESP, I suspect strongly it's M1's first GTL product.

It'll be a few days until I have the time to write up my trip thoughts. Gotta dig out from under the pile on my desk first.
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Old 04-01-2014, 01:07 PM   #288
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AHHHHH! LEAD!



thoughts?
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Old 04-01-2014, 01:30 PM   #289
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Hmm. Not generally good, but not necessarily anything to freak out about. I had a lead spike of 12 ppm in my car at 20k mi which never recurred. (link)

The Silicon number is problematic and could be related, could be dirt (sand) getting in. What's the condition of your air filter? Checked for leaks in your intake tract? Do any recent repairs with RTV? If so the silicon is likely from the RTV.

Check your intake for leaks, maybe replace the filter. Most aftermarket "performance" filters are mediocre at best, the AEM Dryflow is one exception. Use an OEM filter or high quality aftermarket like Napa/Wix platinum or Amsoil (Donaldson). Then maybe re-sample your oil early next time without changing it. Give it 3k Km at least though so the data is decent.

Why 10w30 in Canada though? A bit marginal for winter use, no? Vancouver is on the coast so it's probably not as cold as I'm imagining, but 10w30 is only good down to -25*C. How cold was it on this OCI? It's possible the lead was from oil starvation during a cold start.

Other than the lead and silicon it looks like a good UOA, oil is solid 30wt has good flashpoint, good TBN and a good additive package.
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Old 04-01-2014, 01:38 PM   #290
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What's the story with the air filter? Any why are you running Resource Conserving oil?
If you're lucky, this was just some dirt getting past your air filter. What are the driving conditions?

-Dennis
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Old 04-01-2014, 03:03 PM   #291
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they asked me to check my air filter because of the silicon. I have an AVO turbo kit so it uses a k&n cone filter and it touches the brake lines on the abs pump. I have to stick with the cone filter as the kit does not allow for using the the stock air box. It may still touch a little bit when the engine torques but I don't know. Adding the AOS may be another source as it is sealed up with RTV.

10w-30 is reasonable for here i think. Temp ranges from about -10C (14F) to 35C (95F) over the year. And there is really only a time of maybe 2-3 weeks of being close to that cold point. I run that all year round. I did however go ice racing for 6 days over the course of the winter. This was -25C (-13F) starts with some high rpm driving while racing. I also did quite a few autox events. Overall I probably did 100 runs between all the events. I tried to let it warm up for as long as possible before actually racing but it was hard to actually keep heat in the engine even with it running sometimes. Could very well be from the cold starts...

Aren't most oils resource conserving? I am using castrol edge synthetic 10w-30. A bunch of people recommended the 0w-30 german castrol which i will probably switch to but seeing that I had a bunch of the 10w-30 still I figured I'd use it all up before switching.

The turbo I'm using is a garrett ball bearing turbo (gt2560r) and the oil seals are going on it. Does any part of that have lead in it? I'm not sure what kind of seals they use...

I've got a bunch of parts on the way in prep for doing some track days and I will be draining the oil at that point. Probably won't make it to 2000km though... I'm replacing the oil pump(i have an 11mm currently and replacing it with a 10mm), and putting on a killerb pickup/tray and an sti oil pan. Also have a mocal oil cooler to put on.

Should I bother sending in a sample with so little mileage on it? I may clean out my drain pan and reuse it i guess...
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Old 04-01-2014, 05:20 PM   #292
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they asked me to check my air filter because of the silicon. I have an AVO turbo kit so it uses a k&n cone filter and it touches the brake lines on the abs pump. I have to stick with the cone filter as the kit does not allow for using the the stock air box. It may still touch a little bit when the engine torques but I don't know. Adding the AOS may be another source as it is sealed up with RTV.
Silicon could be from the RTV, but K&N filters aren't great. If you can find another cone filter that fits the tube, replace it. Could be from RTV too, wait until the next UOA to replace the filter, you've got bigger problems.

Quote:
10w-30 is reasonable for here i think. Temp ranges from about -10C (14F) to 35C (95F) over the year. And there is really only a time of maybe 2-3 weeks of being close to that cold point. I run that all year round. I did however go ice racing for 6 days over the course of the winter. This was -25C (-13F) starts with some high rpm driving while racing. I also did quite a few autox events. Overall I probably did 100 runs between all the events. I tried to let it warm up for as long as possible before actually racing but it was hard to actually keep heat in the engine even with it running sometimes. Could very well be from the cold starts...
If your temps truly were -10C to 35C then the RIGHT 10w30 would be fine, but your temps are apparently not -10 to 35C, they're -25C to 35C, which is not fine, also Castrol Edge 10w30 is not the right oil for a turbo Subaru used in anger, especially one with an aftermarket turbo kit. -25C is the lowest temperature at which 10w30 can be counted on to work properly.

Given what you've said, I'm inclined to believe the silicon doesn't have anything to do with the lead, and that the lead was caused either by cold-start problems or high oil temperature problems. Either way, get an oil better suited to the way you use your car.

Quote:
Aren't most oils resource conserving? I am using castrol edge synthetic 10w-30. A bunch of people recommended the 0w-30 german castrol which i will probably switch to but seeing that I had a bunch of the 10w-30 still I figured I'd use it all up before switching.
Most readily available oils are resource conserving, they're also a bit too thin for a turbo Subie, even an OEM one. You've got an aftermarket turbo kit and you're using your car hard without an oil cooler, you need heavier oil. German Castrol is a "Heavy" 30wt oil, but the way you use your car I would say it's not heavy enough. Something like Shell Rotella t6 5w40 would be better, or Redline 5w30.

Quote:
The turbo I'm using is a garrett ball bearing turbo (gt2560r) and the oil seals are going on it. Does any part of that have lead in it? I'm not sure what kind of seals they use...
Shouldn't matter, it's possible they've got soft metal seals with some lead in them, but I highly doubt it.

Quote:
I've got a bunch of parts on the way in prep for doing some track days and I will be draining the oil at that point. Probably won't make it to 2000km though... I'm replacing the oil pump(i have an 11mm currently and replacing it with a 10mm), and putting on a killerb pickup/tray and an sti oil pan. Also have a mocal oil cooler to put on.
I hope your Mocal is thermostatically controlled, in your location it's likely to over-cool the oil on the street. I personally prefer oil-water coolers as they help maintain operating temperature in the cold. Even with the oil cooler, if you're driving on the track I'd be using a HD oil with HTHSv >3.5, and one which is shear stable. RT6, M1 TDT, or Redline 5w30. The other thing you need is an oil temp gauge.

Quote:
Should I bother sending in a sample with so little mileage on it? I may clean out my drain pan and reuse it i guess...
It couldn't hurt to send the sample, if you're spending money on the thing, knowing if the bearings are on the way out is a good idea, you might not have accumulated enough silicon by that time to know if you found any intake leak or not though.
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Old 04-01-2014, 05:51 PM   #293
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Silicon could be from the RTV, but K&N filters aren't great. If you can find another cone filter that fits the tube, replace it. Could be from RTV too, wait until the next UOA to replace the filter, you've got bigger problems.

If your temps truly were -10C to 35C then the RIGHT 10w30 would be fine, but your temps are apparently not -10 to 35C, they're -25C to 35C, which is not fine, also Castrol Edge 10w30 is not the right oil for a turbo Subaru used in anger, especially one with an aftermarket turbo kit. -25C is the lowest temperature at which 10w30 can be counted on to work properly.

Given what you've said, I'm inclined to believe the silicon doesn't have anything to do with the lead, and that the lead was caused either by cold-start problems or high oil temperature problems. Either way, get an oil better suited to the way you use your car.

Most readily available oils are resource conserving, they're also a bit too thin for a turbo Subie, even an OEM one. You've got an aftermarket turbo kit and you're using your car hard without an oil cooler, you need heavier oil. German Castrol is a "Heavy" 30wt oil, but the way you use your car I would say it's not heavy enough. Something like Shell Rotella t6 5w40 would be better, or Redline 5w30.

Shouldn't matter, it's possible they've got soft metal seals with some lead in them, but I highly doubt it.

I hope your Mocal is thermostatically controlled, in your location it's likely to over-cool the oil on the street. I personally prefer oil-water coolers as they help maintain operating temperature in the cold. Even with the oil cooler, if you're driving on the track I'd be using a HD oil with HTHSv >3.5, and one which is shear stable. RT6, M1 TDT, or Redline 5w30. The other thing you need is an oil temp gauge.

It couldn't hurt to send the sample, if you're spending money on the thing, knowing if the bearings are on the way out is a good idea, you might not have accumulated enough silicon by that time to know if you found any intake leak or not though.
Thanks for the info. When I put in the new pump and stuff I will swap to one of the oils you mentioned. I'll have to see what's available. I may have made it sound like its brutal cold here... I have started in sub -10 degree weather this winter MAYBE 5 times. I didn't realize that the oil I was using would potentially cause starting wear like this, but hopefully it will not present itself on the next analysis if that's the cause. Hopefully no permanent damage... Won't be seeing temps like that till mid January or so...

The mocal indeed does have a thermostatic switch in it. No problems there! And at the same time as all these other things I'm putting in, I have a oil temp sensor going in as well. I have to weld on a bung for my oil return on the new pan so I will be adding another bung for the sensor right in the pan. Sensor is sitting on my desk waiting...

Just a little background on the car... It is a 2011sti short block with sohc heads on it. When installed the block had 32,000km and the heads about 60,000km. Turbo kit is also used (50k-ish) running about 8psi, stock redline(6250rpm) and yes, it sees that rpm often while at autox/rallyx/icex at least once a month up to 4 times a month (like on this analysis). The rest of the time its dd with a rather short 15min commute. Hence the typically long interval between changes.

Last edited by Zefy; 04-01-2014 at 05:59 PM.
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Old 04-02-2014, 12:39 AM   #294
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....OH MY GAWDWEREALLGUNNADIE-DIE-DIEHORRIBLEDEATHSFROMCOLDOILDIE-DIE-DE
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Old 04-02-2014, 07:49 AM   #295
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Silicon could be from the RTV, but K&N filters aren't great. If you can find another cone filter that fits the tube, replace it. Could be from RTV too, wait until the next UOA to replace the filter, you've got bigger problems.
Even if that silicon is from the RTV, I would look into another filter. When I switched to Amsoil's Ea panel filter, my silicon levels dropped to lower levels than they ever where with a stock filter.

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produc...ction-filters/

Here's another uoa running a K&N panel filter:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=2992480

-Dennis
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Old 04-02-2014, 09:24 AM   #296
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Thanks for the info. When I put in the new pump and stuff I will swap to one of the oils you mentioned. I'll have to see what's available. I may have made it sound like its brutal cold here... I have started in sub -10 degree weather this winter MAYBE 5 times. I didn't realize that the oil I was using would potentially cause starting wear like this, but hopefully it will not present itself on the next analysis if that's the cause. Hopefully no permanent damage... Won't be seeing temps like that till mid January or so...
Sorry, I made it sound like high temperature problems and low temp ones were equally likely. I think it's more likely high temperature wear than startup, but the number of times has little to do with it, if you experience pump cavitation and lubricant starvation, you can destroy an engine in a few minutes with only one start. The oil's properties, the oil pump/pickup and the starter are supposed to be arranged such that if the oil is too thick to be sucked out of the pan, the engine won't start any way, but ***** happens.

Quote:
The mocal indeed does have a thermostatic switch in it. No problems there! And at the same time as all these other things I'm putting in, I have a oil temp sensor going in as well. I have to weld on a bung for my oil return on the new pan so I will be adding another bung for the sensor right in the pan. Sensor is sitting on my desk waiting...

Just a little background on the car... It is a 2011sti short block with sohc heads on it. When installed the block had 32,000km and the heads about 60,000km. Turbo kit is also used (50k-ish) running about 8psi, stock redline(6250rpm) and yes, it sees that rpm often while at autox/rallyx/icex at least once a month up to 4 times a month (like on this analysis). The rest of the time its dd with a rather short 15min commute. Hence the typically long interval between changes.
6,250? I thought STIs were 7,000. My 2.5l WRX is 6,500. At any rate, sustained high RPM operation while cornering could be another cause of the lead spike. The engine pumps all the oil into the heads. I'm not super knowledgeable about such problems in Subarus though, maybe search the motorsports forum.
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Old 04-02-2014, 12:43 PM   #297
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Sorry, I made it sound like high temperature problems and low temp ones were equally likely. I think it's more likely high temperature wear than startup, but the number of times has little to do with it, if you experience pump cavitation and lubricant starvation, you can destroy an engine in a few minutes with only one start. The oil's properties, the oil pump/pickup and the starter are supposed to be arranged such that if the oil is too thick to be sucked out of the pan, the engine won't start any way, but ***** happens.



6,250? I thought STIs were 7,000. My 2.5l WRX is 6,500. At any rate, sustained high RPM operation while cornering could be another cause of the lead spike. The engine pumps all the oil into the heads. I'm not super knowledgeable about such problems in Subarus though, maybe search the motorsports forum.
some of the sti's are 7k rpm. I think in 2009 they were dropped to 6500rpm. But I am running a piggyback on a stock 2.5RS ecu. While I can defeat the stock rev limiter I have decided not for reliability. So I stick with the stock RS redline of 6250.

I will keep a more diligent eye on my oil levels send in another sample when I swap out all the parts I'm planning. I checked last night and it will be about 2800km on the oil.
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Old 04-02-2014, 08:45 PM   #298
geeman789
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Location: Canada
Vehicle:
2011 2.5 HB
Blue

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"...but K&N filters aren't great. If you can find another cone filter that fits the tube, replace it. Could be from RTV too, wait until the next UOA to replace the filter, you've got bigger problems. "

I ran a K n N cone filter for 20 years, and 525 000 km ( 300 000 + miles ) . Original engine... '93 Acura Integra. REDLINED every day, for 20 years...

Given the longevity of the engine, I would say it filtered GOOD ENOUGH!

I also ran 15w40 and 50 in the summer, 0w30/40 or 5w30 in the winter... and changed it often. Lost count of how many times I was told that thick oil would grenade the engine. Nope, never exploded!

Head gasket finally let go, and rust was winning... so I let it go.

I believe that in the current environment of fluids / filters etc., most products are good, or very good. Enthusiasts tend to try and find those EXCELLENT products, for peace of mind or bragging rights or whatever...

I wonder sometimes if the cars really care...
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Old 04-04-2014, 05:52 PM   #299
Villalobosj
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Join Date: Nov 2013
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Here is my oil analysis.... Sorry I couldn't upload the page.

Aluminum 5
Chromium 1
Iron 12
Copper 18
Lead 0
Tin 0
Molybdenum 87
Nickel 0
Manganese 1
Silver 3
Titanium 2
Potassium 2
Boron 95
Silicone 16
Sodium 5
Calcium 2182
Magnesium 34
Phosphorus 798
Zinc 880
Barium 0

Sus viscosity @210 f. 55.4
Cst viscosity @100 c. 8.89
Flashpoint F. 350
Fuel percentage. 0.8
Antifreeze. 0.0
Water percentage. 0.0
Insolubles. 0.3

At the time of the sample the engine had only 4000 miles on it. The oil sample that was taken had 2000 miles on it. I am running Pennzoil ultra 5W-30, with the Bosch filter. After 2000 miles I have only consumed one 1/10th qrt.

I look forward to hearing everyone's opinion!!
Thanks!!
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Old 04-04-2014, 06:11 PM   #300
gpshumway
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Vehicle:
07 OBXT
OBP

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Nice 20 weight oil you've got there. That's the thinnest I think I've seen Pennzoil Ultra 5w30 get. Flashpoint is a bit low, but fuel is only slightly elevated. Something seems amiss. Engine seems to have broken in well, wear metals are only slightly elevated, as is silicon. Note it's Silicon not Silicone. Silicon is an element on the periodic table, silicone is for breast augmentation.

What car is this? New WRX/STI? Can you run a thicker oil?
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