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Old 11-22-2005, 11:26 AM   #176
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http://www.ethanolrfa.org/objects/pd...1lubricity.pdf

Here is an interesting article concerning "lubricity of gasoline" and how it affects fuel system components such as the fuel pump. Walbro fuel pump users take note, since we have a letter from the Walbro company itself stating that they have concerns that E85 may reduce the life of their fuel pumps.
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Old 11-23-2005, 11:38 AM   #177
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^^^umm....That didn't really seem to be too positive about any results one way or the other.

Update: (approaching 6k miles on E85)

Just did my second oil change with Mobil1 synthetic. You could smell the ethanol in the oil, but there was absolutely no gritty feel to the used oil. It was still very slick to touch. Coloration was the normal dark brown/black. It didn't smell burnt, either. The Pennzoil dino-oil I ran when I first converted had that gritty feel to it AND smelled burnt. I still think it's worth the switch.
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Old 12-14-2005, 11:24 PM   #178
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I have been checking out this forum. Awesome stuff on E85. If you go to the "official e85 web site, they say that the motor octane rating of E85 is 104 (average). I saw on another web site where it ranges from 104-108 depending on the season. So is it actually 100? From what I gather, the amount of liquid fuel burned is 30%-40% more than regular gas to achieve the same power? Also, is the evaporative cooling power less when the percentage of Ethanol is reduced; that is, I am assuming it has more evaporative cooling power when running the full E85 blend.
Thanks and awesome post!!
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Old 12-16-2005, 08:01 PM   #179
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I also find it interesting that the timing can't be bumped up significantly with these cars. I was checking out a 95 turbo Mustang that made over 1000rwhp on E85. The wild thing is that he ran about 30 degrees total timing with 13 PSI boost. Normally, those cars can't handle more than about 18 degrees with turbos and regualr gas. Maybe some dyno tuning with these cars could extract some more power.
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Old 12-16-2005, 11:16 PM   #180
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Quote:
Also, is the evaporative cooling power less when the percentage of Ethanol is reduced; that is, I am assuming it has more evaporative cooling power when running the full E85 blend.
Yes there will be a slight drop in evaporative cooling as the percentage goes down but it is not all that significant. Folks running as little as 30% E85 can feel and measure the improved performance.


Quote:
I also find it interesting that the timing can't be bumped up significantly with these cars.
You need to make a distinction between "need more timing" and "will tolerate more timing" due to the higher octane.

E85 have very nearly the same timing requirements as gasoline. In general there should be no need to throw lots of timing at the car. The high octane will let you "get away with lots of timing" but in most cases this is not the best way to make power.

Larry
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Old 12-29-2005, 08:49 PM   #181
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Default Gr4p on my t3h shameless plug!



...I couldn't resist. Funny thing is, every ricer within earshot tried to race me after I put it on. I guess that means it works?
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Old 01-11-2006, 11:29 PM   #182
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Read this thread and went out to try E85. My closest station was about 18 miles, 93 Octane was $2.57 E85 cost $2.47. My normal gas station COSTCO Super $2.43, so I was a little disappointed. Filled my tank with about 65% E85 as the Chevron employees looked at me like I was nuts. As soon as I started my AFR was around 18to1 and with an erratic idle. Driving was poor car didn't want to go and AFR would shoot to 20to1 if any sort of boost was seen.
Pulled over and eventfully found it idling perfect and getting AFR the way it should be at WOT by adding a CRAPLOAD of fuel. Using UTEC I went from having the 0% column set at 0 to 4.5 just to get it idling when car first started. At WOT around 17psi 5,000 rpms my maf voltage is 4.3. Haven't been past 5000 rpms yet due to not having hours to tune.
Adding this much fuel is not what I expected. Reading this thread says not to trust my Turner Pro Wideband. At this point I can't wait to get this out of my WRX. Worse gas mileage same cost as gas and needs more tuning then I expected. And this stuff doesn't smell great when burning. Glad thing I have 800cc injectors.

Last edited by fatray; 01-12-2006 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 01-12-2006, 12:36 PM   #183
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You had some growing pains. It's okay dude.

#1) Write a readable paragraph .

#2) turn down your boost by 1/3 OR increase your fuel by 1/3. Cut the boost back is my first suggestion. That would be the same as richening you're mixture by 1/3. You may think it's going to make less power, but it will until you figure out the tuning. Make it happy with less boost THEN start turning things up. You shouldn't be adding "a lot" of fuel, but about 30% more. Again, cutting your boost back a bit will help you get things dialed in at a decent level. Don't cut the boost AND add too much fuel. Just do one or the other. Being engine friendly usually has to do with turning back the boost. Forget tuning for max power at first. Just get used to how the fuel behaves. You should have faster spool and cooler temps. Turn things up after you figure it out and then it becomes a wild ass ride!

#3) Your wideband is fine. Whatever it reads, cut it in half. They read differently. A General rule of thumb is to just cut the AFR's reading in half with some math in your head.

#4) That station is ripping you off. I get mine for $1.99/gal

....Please don't give up. Play with what you have left in the tank. You're just not past the growing pains. If I did it with a stock computer, fuel pump, and a 5 cent hose clamp, you can do a better job with your fancier equipment.

Last edited by HamFist; 01-12-2006 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 01-12-2006, 12:43 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HamFist
#3) Your wideband is fine. Whatever it reads, cut it in half. They read differently. A General rule of thumb is to just cut the AFR's reading in half with some math in your head.
Or just use the lambda setting on the tunerpro.

TMS
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Old 01-12-2006, 12:53 PM   #185
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Go back to post #2 and you'll see Larry's chart for lambda stuff. I'm not even sure how to read that because I don't own one. I only know the (AFR * .5) trick
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Old 01-12-2006, 01:42 PM   #186
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Ok, I got it running a lot better last night. I'm seeing quicker spool, 1psi boost increase and no knock. Starting to like this stuff, except the price I paid. The next closest station is 30 miles away in the same town as TurboXS. I would say I increased my fuel by 30%, I consider that a lot of extra fuel.
About the wideband, the stock ECU wants the AFR to be 14.7 at idle and there is nothing I can do about it using the UTEC. Your saying cut that reading in half? Right now I got my AFR to be around 11.2 (what wideband is displaying) at 7,000rpms. That seems to be perfect according to my buttmeter, EGT's, no knock and no sputtering. But I am really running 5.6 to 1 AFR at 7,000 rpms????? Is this correct? That just doesn't seem right, with normal gas at 5.6 afr the car would die.
I'll figure it out, just need some help.
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Old 01-12-2006, 02:04 PM   #187
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No, you're doing fine man. Glad to see you sticking with it. 6:1 is a "little rich" but keep it there until you feel comfy with it. 7-8:1 would be ideal, but you're doing fine. It's a bit of a mind-job until you get used to it. My stock ECU is still doing fine. Reading 11:1 on the top end and 16:1 in the midrange. That's still 8:1 midrange and 5.5:1 on the top end.

I'm curious what your exact EGT readings are. I played a bit tuning a link way back in the day but didn't have a wideband to read it off of. Another fella tuned it with a wideband, it beat the snot out of my map. The EGT's never got high at all, either. A good gas tune actually had EGT's between 800-1,000F. When it's dialed in right, all the temps go down whether it's gas or ethanol. It was a funny phenomenon that I just keep in mind.

When you get the car happy, gradually turn up the boost a bit and the fuel. Before long you'll have a nice map we all wanna see for about 18psi on this stuff .
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Old 01-12-2006, 02:52 PM   #188
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fatray... if your WBO2 is calibrated for gasoline then just tune it like you would for gasoline (i.e. shoot for about the same target AFR's). I don't know what HamFist is talking about with the 1/2 rule, but Lambda is the same (how much O2 is left), it doesn't matter what the "guage" readout is calibrated for (as long as you know what it's calibrated for). Lambda lean, rich and best power readings are close enough for both gasoline and alcohol. Since your WB actually reads Lambda, then does it's conversion to AFR, it will work with all fuels. Unless you can change what your WB is calibrated for, just tune it to the same displayed AFR as gasoline or maybe a tad rich.

Specifically go back to the chart at the end of post #2 and look at the AFR and Lambda figures. Notice how close the Lambda numbers are between gasoline and E85. If your WB has the ability to display Lambda, I'd tune with that to avoid confusion with AFR's. Hope this helps. -Chuck
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Old 01-12-2006, 03:31 PM   #189
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^^^What he said....much better advice there. My "1/2 trick" (actually Larry's) was for AFR readings only.
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Old 01-12-2006, 04:02 PM   #190
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One trick I was going to try when I get new injectors is the injector scaling. I plan to get a set of 740 cc injectors which figures to be 35% larger than my stockers. I was going to change the injector scaling in the UTEC to read 575/550 instead of 550/550. That should globally pull ~5% fuel and account for the other 30% extra that I need for E85. You might have your injector scaling set at 800/440 (taking a guess here), I'd knock that down to ~560/440 just to start instead of going through and adding fuel in all the cells in the fuel map. That way if you were ever in need to change back to a straight gasoline (it could happen), you could just change the injector scaling back to 800/440 (or what ever it is now) and "get by". If you have a well tuned gasoline map now you could save that in another map location and switch back to that after changing the scaling for perfection. That's my plan of attack once I get a source for E85 close to home and a set of 740's. -Chuck
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Old 01-12-2006, 06:58 PM   #191
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Good idea with the injector scaling, but if I can't find an E85 gas station I'm screwed if I don't have my laptop on me to change the scaling. Pain to set up but much easy to push a button to change maps.
HamFist, boost adds a lot of heat. Crusing on the highway at 70mph I see 1,350f, and wot at 8,000rpms I see my needle edge past 1600f. With the E85 I noticed 1550f at 8,000rpms.
According to my WB and knock sensor, car runs perfect with E85 @ 20psi 8,000 rpms and 11.2AFR with 2 degrees more timing. Car is much more responsive at lower RPMS now, that is huge!!
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Old 01-12-2006, 07:30 PM   #192
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I am lucky in that my ECU learns around the E85 at lower concentrations (5/1 89 pump to E85) very quickly. I have not tried higher concentrations, but the cost of E85 in the Balt/D.C. area is hella high and doesn't give that much of a cost / milage / performance increase.

I save ~5% using 89 instead of 93, but the E85 is more thatn 93 and my gas milage goes down 10% to keep the AFRs happy with the new mixture.

That being said, it sure does quiet down the occational knock events, adds a miled afterburn pop out the tailpipe on shifting. This is the first winter that I have had after using the E85 and it just so happens that I am now experiencing the cold temp fuel leak. I don't think it is a cause, but a unique cooincidence.
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Old 01-13-2006, 12:33 AM   #193
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fatray--I'm very happy to see you having this much success this early. You're not done yet, though . I'm curious, if you dump in even more fuel. WILL that wideband 02 convert it to read alcohol??? Get it closer to 9:1. If that AFR fuel gauge does convert to read the correct AFR for either gas/alcohol, you need to be richer than 11:1 for E85. 9:1 is considered "lean" on alcohol. 8:1 would be ideal. 11:1 could give you problems before long. It won't knock but it might burn valves or pistons if you run it too hard. You should see EGT's go down and get better pull. With 800cc's to start with...use it. I don't wanna see you hurt anything this early! I'm pretty sure you could feel it if it loaded up on too much fuel. But I think you'll still see improvements if that thing is giving you true AFR readout without any fudging. Don't go past 20 psi. Dump in more fuel and then start playing with timing while getting ready to add even more fuel . You're not done getting the full benefit of the fuel, yet. 30% is kinda the "starting point", but it won't have to go much further than that.

BTW, what turbo are you using?. Don't fiddle with the timing yet until you play with the fuel. Once AFR is near 9 and EGT probably goes down further, it'll be a happier car. Once that's happy play with the timing off boost. Advancing it there will help your spool. Once you "get past lag", you wanna keep it in the turbo's sweet spot. This should make your turbo "feel smaller" if that makes sense. It should spool a lot faster than gas. Get past the spool quicker and you spend more time at the boost level you want. Then, adjust fuel + timing accordingly for your fatter and flatter torque curve . You're making more end gas running as rich as alcohol needs to be. A turbo is really gonna like it . The wastegate gets rid of everythiing else you don't need. You're just getting to your preset level quicker.

...apparently this is also something drag hondas use. A few locals have mentioned using E85 as well. I was talking to a fella in California who works for a certain popular nitrous/turbo/tuning company. He (nameless...) completely understands why the car runs as good as it does. He uses what's called E98 in the drag Honda. A 98% ethanol mix? He ran 50psi plus nitrous through their 8 second FWD Honda on that stuff. Supposedly, 25-30psi on E85 is not a problem. I think it would take more than even 750cc injectors to do that, though.

I read of E95 as a diesel application. The gas sets the flashpoint just right for diesel, according to the article. But, it's the same ethanol with gasoline added, not diesel, just at a different ratio of gas/ethanol. I haven't read a thing on ethanol based fuels working in diesel apps other than that. Anyone have any ideas if this we could still use this stuff, too?
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Old 01-13-2006, 09:53 AM   #194
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HamFist... if fatray is running a AFR of 11.2:1 on his gasoline calibrated WB, that correlates to approx 0.77 lambda which would would put him exactly in the middle of the range between best power lean and rich for E85. His 11.2:1 AFR reading converts to 7.65:1 AFR for E85. If he wants he could add a little more fuel for best power rich, but it seems to me he is already in the "safe" zone for fueling. I'd start turning up the boost and enjoy the extra octane rating. -Chuck
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Old 01-13-2006, 10:46 AM   #195
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Can you clarify something for me then? I'm not flaming, but I do wanna know. If that .5 for reading the AFR isn't right, then where the heck are you getting your conversion factor? You're still fudging. I was under the impression, after reading your last post, that the AFR was a straight across reading. Now, there's a conversion factor again. Would you please clarify? Here's larrys' chart. I thought we were "deriving" the right number somehow off of this. If anything, according to this, .4 instead of .5 was right.

Fuel AFRst FARst Equivalence Lambda
---- ----- ----- Ratio -----
=======================--====================================

Gasoline stoich 14.7 0.068 1 1
Gasoline Max power rich 12.5 0.08 1.176 0.8503
Gasoline Max power lean 13.23 0.0755 1.111 0.900

=======================--====================================

E85 stoich 9.765 0.10235 1 1
E85 Max power rich 6.975 0.1434 1.40 0.7143
E85 Max power lean 8.4687 0.118 1.153 0.8673


=======================--====================================

E100 stoich 9.0 0.111 1 1
E100 Max power rich 6.429 0.155 1.4 0.714
E100 Max power lean 7.8 0.128 1.15 0.870


=======================--====================================

I just DON'T want him blowing up his motor this early in his testing. Where are you getting your "fudge number"?
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Old 01-13-2006, 11:08 AM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatray
my Turner Pro Wideband.
Set it to lambda and forget about all theses fudge factors.

TMS
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Old 01-13-2006, 11:14 AM   #197
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I'm just doing some extrapolating, since I don't have a lambda and AFR graph for E85 and gasoline sitting in front of me. I'm converting his gasoline AFR's to Lambda and then from Lambda back to E85 AFR's. for example... 14.7:1 on gas is 1.0 Lambda. 1.0 Lambda is 9.765:1 on E85, therefore on his particular WB, running E85 at stoich will display 14.7(even though the actual AFR will be 9.765) . there's no straight "multiply gas AFR by "x" to get E85 AFR" that I'm aware of. I'm converting to Lambda then to whatever fuel AFR he needs. You have to use Lambda because that is what the WB is actually reading. The WB does the converting for you into what ever it's told to when it displays an AFR.

TMS has the right idea... leave it on Lambda... -Chuck
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Old 01-13-2006, 11:23 AM   #198
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Now that makes sense. Leave it on Lambda is good advice too. Just to stoke the fire a bit, would he want to see between 0.7143(rich 7:1) and 1(lean 9.8:1)?
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Old 01-13-2006, 11:45 AM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HamFist
Now that makes sense. Leave it on Lambda is good advice too. Just to stoke the fire a bit, would he want to see between 0.7143(rich 7:1) and 1(lean 9.8:1)?
You want a lambda of 1 off boost. Start to richen up on boost and you may have to go richer than .7143, .7143 is just best power. You might need more fuel to stop det, just like the normal gasoline ~12:1 is best power, but we tune to 11:1 for safety.

TMS
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Old 01-13-2006, 12:47 PM   #200
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Here is my car and my mods http://www.yourapainintheass.com/wrx.htm
Water injection isn't hooked up right now, pump broke and I haven't put new one in yet. As soon as I and everyone else agrees on the correct AFR I will try out the N2O. The way my car is running now, I would have to agree with ataac_flat04 on what my TurboXS TunerPro is displaying. But I will give lowering the AFR a try. Car is running very well at my current settings. This is my first fill up of E85, by Monday or later today I should need a fill-up again. Will be heading to another E85 station in Annapolis 20miles away for a fill-up, hopefully it will be cheaper. If it's not cheaper I will be using E85 only once in a while.

I have started using a program for the UTEC that does a decent job adjusting my map for my AFR table. For those using a UTEC you should check it out. Program should be able to do lambada readings I assume.
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