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11-23-2008, 10:04 PM | #26 |
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well you should just search Fobia's thread, in which a stock EJ257 spooled a gt4088R and then a BW S374 almost identicaly.
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11-24-2008, 08:48 PM | #27 | ||||||||
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i appreciate your enthusiasm, but your posts are not factual... the majority of your posts indicate you do not fully understand turbocharging fundamentals Quote:
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the reason its on 3 forums is that test was performed on an evo so i posted it on evoM. i put it on CRSX because i am one of the people that made clubRSX's turbo forum what it is today... (i used to be the moderator on there and now i post up any cool tests i do every time i do them whether its on an RB26 a supra or a honda). why you are pulling up my posts and trying to use them to discredit me is something i will not try to understand Quote:
actually that is completely false. the GT4094 is a cut down 42R compressor wheel stuffed into a too-small 4088R comp hsg. it is a terribly inefficient turbo that does not work all that well... It has literally nothing in common with the BW 83mm exducer compwheel in this thread, except for the fact they are both made out of aluminum. Quote:
heed your own advice that is correct, i have a lot of experience with the 4088R and LOVE it. If you search you will probably find i am one of the strongest supporters of this turbocharger!!! Last edited by Full-Race Geoff; 11-24-2008 at 08:56 PM. |
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11-24-2008, 09:04 PM | #28 | ||
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your manifold isnt comparatively expensive? these turbos wont be at different pr's on a subie motor? Quote:
the comp map of the 4094 (high pr's and higher flow rating) is way more comparable to the BW one you posted than a gt35 comp map. And just because you can show two turbos spooling the same in a single gear on the dyno doesnt show how they will act in lower gears and off boost. I can plot up my fp green outspooling 20g's for days in 4th gear pulls....but it loses to the 20g quite handily in 1st-3rd pulls..... Last edited by Phatron; 11-24-2008 at 09:10 PM. |
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11-25-2008, 09:29 AM | #29 | |
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He compared the compressor maps because they're the maps of the two turbos in the thread. he didn't use a 4094 map because he didn't use the turbo in the comparison. 2 very different turbos that acted very similar on the dyno. that was the point. |
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11-25-2008, 11:35 AM | #30 |
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Phatron,
You need to reread your original posts. You're confused on what "factual" means. I won't pick apart your post line by line, but your opinion is simply that and though you may think enough of yourself to equate your opinion with fact, it doesn't make it so. You obviously have some sort of bias at work here, so maybe you should just move on. And just for clarity, a bigger turbo that equals the smaller turbo down low that is the "standard" (make no mistake, the 35R is the standard), cost less money to buy and much less money to rebuild is a better option. Only an idiot would argue otherwise, but that seems to be your point. |
11-25-2008, 02:32 PM | #31 |
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alright i was wrong.
the bw is better than the gt35 |
11-25-2008, 03:11 PM | #32 |
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11-25-2008, 03:31 PM | #33 |
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so how many BW advocates in here have a BW? Or have results on a subie?
can you guys atleast agree with me on these two points 1) a turbo comparo and an evo doesnt necessarily reflect how that comparo would go in a subie 2) a 4th gear dyno chart isnt a meaningful assessment of 1st-3rd gear and off boost characteristics Last edited by Phatron; 11-25-2008 at 03:41 PM. |
11-25-2008, 04:52 PM | #34 | |
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Relax Ron, you come across as someone who wants to slam everything FR says, like they slighted you or something. (I know that is not how you feel, but it seems that way) I think you would love for the FR stuff to perform, just as much as I want it to. Just ask meaningful questions, OK? I know you can do it. FWIW so far FR has been one of the best at answering my questions and displaying that they do in fact have a fair bit of turbo knowledge. I don't think are the be-all-and-end-all of suby info, but they are getting there. They still haven't really proven HUGE power and spool gains from there headers, apparently that takes a bit of time. (too much IMO) So far good evidence is on the table, and many of us want to see more. I actually think Ron is the way he he is because he really wants a FR manifold, but just cannot swallow the $$s, but then he is stuck because nobody else makes one that is its equal. So he complains in hopes that FR will lower their price. If he didn't care about the ultimate in boost-threshold/power he wouldn't be posting here. Remember, being the first requires lots of R&D, that costs money (at least in the USA). I am not ready to shell out $3000 for their manifold. But if it proves (still waiting on more evidence) to be the best combo of spool/power, then I will spend the money, as will a few others here. FWIW Eric at FR as all over getting per gear logs, it is almost like I am the first person to ever do it. I think he thinks it will help prove their product. I hope he is right. |
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11-25-2008, 05:01 PM | #35 |
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^^ at least someone can read between the lines....
how could the rest of you not get that from my meaningful, well though out and structured posts....i was definately in no way under the influence of anything during enscribation of said posts. yes, littleblue is right. Of course i want one....or both the BW and the FR manifold. |
11-25-2008, 05:24 PM | #36 | |
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11-25-2008, 07:02 PM | #37 | |
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there are a lot of interesting questions with both the FR mani and the BW turbos....
how are the gains of the FR mani on a single scroll turbo compared to a twin scroll setup what exactly is the extended tip technology in the BW turbos....and why does robert from FP call it a "gimmick" and claim their turbos dont need it to perform well? Quote:
lastly....i have yet to find any turbo comparo on nasioc in which the tester setup a true technical test and collected the proper data to explain why a certain turbo was/wasnt performing well. whens the last you saw turbine back pressure, compressor boost pressure and intake plenum pressure data along with a detailed technical explanation of what was causing the power/power loss? i am certainly not the smartest person in the world when it comes to turbo chargers and the workings, but i know enough to know that running 2 turbos at the same boost in one gear doesnt tell you how they will perform in other gears, nor does it tell you how the comp and turbine were working during the test and what PR the comp was really at during the test. |
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11-25-2008, 10:56 PM | #38 | |
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The only company I've seen doing actual testing as you described is Full Race. They could tell you the pressure any where in their "system" and have posted pics with all the pressure and temp probes pocking out of everything. Of course, they're testing their manifold designs and not turbo options. It's odd that you're expecting something from Full Race that by your own admission, no one on here or any other forum has provided. Frankly, I doubt any of the shops that post on here have the time, budget or experience to do the testing your wanting. In fact, I'd argue that outside of a lab where all conditions can be controlled, the testing your requesting can't be done. I'm sure BW and Garrett both have done extensive testing, but I don't expect either to share their data. I can guaranty you that there are multiple turbos out there that will out perform the almost 2 decades old, designed for a diesel, Garrett GT35R. I'm not sure why you find this so hard to believe. Frankly, BW or Garrett could both have easily done this already, but the business case wasn't there. Finally, just let it go. You've made a valiant attempt at recovering, but we're not getting any where. |
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11-26-2008, 02:30 PM | #39 |
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well my point about the data collection is that without the data no one can come to a "real" conclusion about why the dyno plot is the way it is.
did you notice on the comparo plot that the BW's run was started about 500rpm sooner than the gt35? you think that effects the spool? i can post up 6 million plots of my car with pulls started 500rpm apart and show you what it does to the spool, boost, tq, etc....but im sure you already know. do you know what the IAT's were on the pulls? again, i can show you data of a 50* pull started at 2500rpm vs a 80* pull started at 3000rpm. do you know the boost over the whole pull? do you know what the timing was? afr? do you know how much power varying the AFR 2-3 full points correlates to on an evo? do you know if the car was retuned with the BW or run on the same map as the gt35? maybe the 1.06 turbine on the gt35 was killing its spool....maybe the spool woulda kicked ass with the 0.82 and maybe it woulda made the same peak hp with the 0.82 on pump gas..... everyone keeps bagging on me, but again please tell me what conclusive information you can draw from the above dyno plots.....and then explain how you can take that conclusion and relate it to a ej2x motor. |
11-26-2008, 03:26 PM | #40 |
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hey, what were the logs on oil temp too or maybe the tranny temp?
I think Geoff put a good comparo together. he has no reason to put the BW above a Garrett unless he has become a BW dealer now and suddenly plans on throwing away all his work on Garrett turbo kits. I ask if the dyno was started 500 rpm one way or another, would it really matter past a certain rpm like 4200rpm???? I know several folks who are racers, mostly drag, and they are switching to the BW. One even broke his class record with the new BW turbo. ok, my head hurts now. |
11-26-2008, 06:55 PM | #41 | |
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to completely exaggerate the effect of starting at a later rpm picture these two scenarios 1) cruising on the freeway in 4th gear at 4500rpm, then going WOT 2) starting a WOT pull at 2000rpm in 4th gear In which case do you think you'll be at higher power levels at 4500rpm almost to redline? it takes time for the exhaust gases to spin the turbine up.... |
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11-30-2008, 01:49 AM | #42 |
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\can you link to that thread? very interesting to hear the results, that seems almost too good to be true.
this is the link http://mnsubaru.com/forums/showthrea...992#post557992 sorry 500 rpms differince in spool when I asked him. my bad |
11-30-2008, 02:47 AM | #43 |
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Just FYI -
I look forward to the results you guys have - I went with the GT35/40r twin scroll through ATP turbo with a Zerosports twin scroll header to a custom up-pipe w/ a Turbosmart 38mm wastegate - Very quick spoolup - and clean linear powercurve throughout - Supporting mods in a nutshell: CP stock bore pistons - Cosworth Rods - Axis Billet Crank Ported non-avcs Spec C Heads w/ Jun Valvetrain & Kelford 272 cams Ultimate Racing 1000cc injectors/fuel rail w/ 400gph fuel pump Element Hydra EMS Tuned by Phil Gabrow - best of luck to you guys! Twin scroll on a Suby is one hell of a treat... |
12-07-2008, 09:55 AM | #44 |
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let me add my $0.02 here is my S258 /.70 AR TXS plot , 23/24 psi on 93 octane .
My setup is stock heads,only mod to the block was replacement pistons,stock modified 816cc injectors , 3" turbo bk,utec. The turbo is pretty decent , seems like it doesn't wake up till 28-30+ psi though based on the flowchart I see on their site. Midrange power is decent |
12-07-2008, 12:54 PM | #45 |
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@Geoff "but we will be performing the identical test on an STI in the next 2-3 weeks."
Looking forward to the results! |
12-07-2008, 07:41 PM | #46 |
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[quote=Full-Race Geoff;24592345]
i disagree.. i think the BW turbos are easier because they dont require watercooling and exotic fittings (a gt inlet is 7/16" inverted flare with an .035 restrictor and coolant fittings are M14, good luck finding that at your local hardware store) also with the BW turbos there are only (2) a/r T4 housings to choose from (garrett often has 3 or 4). Of course there is still nothing wrong with the garrett units, they are excellent, consistent units that deliver fantastic performance. [quote=Full-Race Geoff;24592345] sry about that i think i got them confused with the Bullseye units witch i always thought were the same as BW. sry about that. |
01-31-2009, 03:29 PM | #47 |
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02-02-2009, 03:20 PM | #48 |
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sorry for the delay. Rather than test with our Gen1 kit, we decided to do push back the testing and do it with our Gen2 kit on yimisport's 08 STI.
the results will be ALLL over this site and iwsti, you guys are going to love what we have in store for the next few months < hint - working on a repeat of this: http://www.full-race.com/modified08/ > |
02-02-2009, 11:35 PM | #49 |
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Indeed we are Of course, we are looking at going with something a wee bit bigger than a GT35R
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02-03-2009, 07:04 AM | #50 |
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I just dont think the results would/WILL be the same in the Subaru "configuration". The Evo configuration makes for 'easier' spool..etc. Its sweetness. Suby results may be close, but i doubt the same. However, having gone through many turbos myself and friends cars, I have always thought that the turbos having journal bearings VS BB (gt35r..etc) were minimaly defined in those ways, IMO. No test's, just IMO.
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