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Old 03-27-2012, 06:26 PM   #151
manticus
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
Some of us have been bringing up the performance level since the engine specs came out, regardless of price... now the price is higher than most thought it would be, also.
What performance level? What do you consider your gauge of performance? $/hp? $/0-60 time? $/skidpad g? I think most of the rational people are pretty open-minded about test driving it so we can see what all the hype is about before pouring our money into it, while others are convinced that the numerous positive reviews are enough to warrant putting money down to begin with. Is there anything wrong with that?

Let's say this turns out to be an exercise in fail - what's the worst that happens? You get yourself a nice cheap BRZ on the used market because no one wants them.

But, on the other hand, will you be willing to eat crow (figuratively) if every BRZ sells out before it even hits the dealership? Would that finally convince you that there is a market for this vehicle and that Subaru can successfully sell it?
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Old 03-27-2012, 06:28 PM   #152
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If you don't think this car has enough power than it's obviously not for you, and Subaru didn't build it with you in mind. That's why the WRX/STi exists and will continue.
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Old 03-27-2012, 06:35 PM   #153
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But, on the other hand, will you be willing to eat crow (figuratively) if every BRZ sells out before it even hits the dealership? Would that finally convince you that there is a market for this vehicle
Yup.. yup.. I'm nodding along at home..
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and that Subaru can successfully sell it?
Whoa.. slow down there.. this is the company that couldn't move a Giugiaro designed sports car in the early 90's.
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Old 03-27-2012, 06:46 PM   #154
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What performance level? What do you consider your gauge of performance? $/hp? $/0-60 time? $/skidpad g? I think most of the rational people are pretty open-minded about test driving it so we can see what all the hype is about before pouring our money into it, while others are convinced that the numerous positive reviews are enough to warrant putting money down to begin with. Is there anything wrong with that?

Let's say this turns out to be an exercise in fail - what's the worst that happens? You get yourself a nice cheap BRZ on the used market because no one wants them.

But, on the other hand, will you be willing to eat crow (figuratively) if every BRZ sells out before it even hits the dealership? Would that finally convince you that there is a market for this vehicle and that Subaru can successfully sell it?
I have never said that people shouldn't buy it. I hope it does sell well to those who want it. I have never said otherwise. I have said that it could be better with more power which I think the best avenue for is an H6, and other cars could be better for people who want something with a bit more room, or a bit more traction.

Saying something else might be better, is not equivalent to saying this thing sucks. That is not a logical inference. Not perfect, and not a world-killer does not mean "sucks" either.

I just said that the commentariat around here is strikingly unfriendly to any wayward word about this car, and you are proving my point again, trying to make it about ME, and whether I will eat crow, not about the CAR, and how widely or narrowly appealing it might be.

Just because it has a Subaru badge on it, or a Subaru badge on the engine, doesn't mean the car is perfect, nor that it should automatically be chosen over a different alternative, theoretical, or actual.
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Old 03-27-2012, 06:51 PM   #155
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I just said that the commentariat around here is strikingly unfriendly to any wayward word about this car,
This is true. I've been cheering on this car since day one.. but the moment I say the price is too high people are jumping down my throat.

At least it's entertaining. *shrug*
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Old 03-27-2012, 06:53 PM   #156
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If you don't think this car has enough power than it's obviously not for you, and Subaru didn't build it with you in mind. That's why the WRX/STi exists and will continue.
If you talk about more than one person, that is the crux of the issue.

If Subaru didn't' build it for enough people, the sales won't support the vehicle.

You can't just say, "sod off" and then not consider the implications for more than one person who might AGREE that the car doesn't have enough performance per dollar compared to it's alternatives, or simply isn't compelling enough to part with their cash.

If Subaru tells enough people to "sod off, it isn't for you." Eventually, it won't be for anyone, because it will have failed.

I have no idea why people here seem to think Subaru, as well as themselves, are justified in telling potential Subaru customers that they are wrong if they happen not to be in lock-step, and then think that is tremendous business practice for a company with well under 10% marketshare, that should be seeking every last sale that anyone wants to send their way.
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Old 03-27-2012, 07:07 PM   #157
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You're referring to the S2000 that had a 10 year run.. right?
Does that indicate a car's success? If so, I remember the NSX having a 15 year run.
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Old 03-27-2012, 07:24 PM   #158
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1. I like being called a "commentariat".

2. I didn't know H2BS was a sodding British.

3. I don't think anyone is not understanding that cars are meant to be sold. The real question is how many they expect to sell, and the last I checked, the expectation was fairly reasonable (5~7k a year).
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Old 03-27-2012, 07:29 PM   #159
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We were more unfriendly when the broken record about an H6 AWD coupe came up over and over and over.

I think most of us realize that the specs make the BRZ a hard sell. To people that aren't looking for a hardtop Miata, the WRX is a more attractive package when they'll realistically cost the same similarly equipped sitting beside one another on the lot. If you are looking for a hardtop Miata, there simply isn't a new car that compares.
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Old 03-27-2012, 08:51 PM   #160
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Ive owned a 02 wrx, 10 wrx, 07 STI, and I still have a 90 miata...

I hated the 10 wrx, car "felt" too big (perrin sways and bc coils)

the sti was a blast to drive, but I can drive the pi$$ out the miata all the time.

The BRZ/FR-S is a little over priced IMHO, $22(base)-24k(premium) for the FR-S, and $24-28k

I think the $30k price tag that some local (Dallas) dealers are talking is crazy (but you can max out the options on a miata and be in the $30k range as well)

Im hoping that when the hype dies down so does the price.

(even though Im not a big fan, I can get a new 12 WRX for $26k and THATS alot of car for the $)
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Old 03-27-2012, 09:16 PM   #161
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If you talk about more than one person, that is the crux of the issue.

If Subaru didn't' build it for enough people, the sales won't support the vehicle.

You can't just say, "sod off" and then not consider the implications for more than one person who might AGREE that the car doesn't have enough performance per dollar compared to it's alternatives, or simply isn't compelling enough to part with their cash.

If Subaru tells enough people to "sod off, it isn't for you." Eventually, it won't be for anyone, because it will have failed.

I have no idea why people here seem to think Subaru, as well as themselves, are justified in telling potential Subaru customers that they are wrong if they happen not to be in lock-step, and then think that is tremendous business practice for a company with well under 10% marketshare, that should be seeking every last sale that anyone wants to send their way.
I understand this, and it's obvious that at a lower price point, or at it's current price point, with more power, this car would be a MUCH larger player in an ever increasing competitive market. BUT I don't think Subaru has totally botched this thing! How many new car releases do you say to yourself, "yup, they got everything right about that car the first time?"
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:49 AM   #162
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Ugh, forget this. No more argument on the Internet.. you hear that INTERNET? NONE FOR YOU.

Last edited by manticus; 03-28-2012 at 01:04 AM.
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Old 03-28-2012, 07:22 AM   #163
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Ugh, forget this. No more argument on the Internet.. you hear that INTERNET? NONE FOR YOU.
Aww... but we were all being soo productive...
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:29 AM   #164
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At that price, with only 200hp and with that cheap looking interior I rather buy this:



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Old 03-28-2012, 09:16 AM   #165
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Which is a completely different kind of car.. but yes, far more value unless you spend 90% of your driving time delivering tofu to the village on the other side of the mountain.
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:19 AM   #166
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Far more value? If you value a pure driving experience, that might not be the case. My brother has a GC, and while it really is a great car for the money, I am not in love with how it feels to drive the car. It's rather disconnected. They may have addressed that with the new model, but I doubt it.
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:22 AM   #167
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Well, this thread is about where I expected it to be by page 4.

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Old 03-28-2012, 09:32 AM   #168
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Far more value? If you value a pure driving experience, that might not be the case...
Driving experience is great.. when you aren't suck in traffic or cruising down an interstate or in a stop sign jungle or.. you know, 90% of the average driver's time behind the wheel.


Just because a car feels great behind the wheel when you're pushing it to its limits down a backroad doesn't mean it's a great car for everyone... and there-in lies the problem with this car's value. It's only worth $25k to a very small portion of the population.

Toyota expects to sell 7,000 of these a year..

Keep in mind, Subaru only managed to sell 14,033, 99-01 2.5RS units over 4 years.

The BMW e30 M3 (widely regarded to be one of the most influential drivers cars ever made) only sold 5,000 units in it's 4 year production life.
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:45 AM   #169
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Driving experience is great.. when you aren't suck in traffic or cruising down an interstate or in a stop sign jungle or.. you know, 90% of the average driver's time behind the wheel.


Just because a car feels great behind the wheel when you're pushing it to its limits down a backroad doesn't mean it's a great car for everyone... and there-in lies the problem with this car's value. It's only worth $25k to a very small portion of the population.

Toyota expects to sell 7,000 of these a year..

Keep in mind, Subaru only managed to sell 14,033, 99-01 2.5RS units over 4 years.

The BMW e30 M3 (widely regarded to be one of the most influential drivers cars ever made) only sold 5,000 units in it's 4 year production life.
I guess we'll see. However, I'd argue that this car can't really be compared to either of those. The 2.5RS didn't exactly rewrite the book on providing a pure driving experience, and the E30 M3 was a much, much more expensive car in its day.

I know magazine racing only takes you so far, but I can't remember this much media hype about driving experience in a long, long time. Usually being slower than expected results in a total write-off by the media; instead, people are raving about this car's "intangibles" and saying that the numbers don't matter. Maybe this really is a special car. In any case, you can bet people are paying attention based on how many orders have already been placed.
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:49 AM   #170
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The FA20 in the FR-S/BRZ has a 12.5:1 compression ratio... so I'm guessing any bolt-on turbo kits will be as successful as those for the old 2.5RS.



Comparing the success of boosting old 2.5RS to the new BRZ engine, I feel, is apple's 2 oranges.

We have years of boosting RS's experience and the best we can do with the BRZ is bench race it.............so I will.

The BRZ could turn out to be quite boost happy. With DI, its a totally different ball game. I.E. the ecoboost engine in the f150 is 10/1 CR, makes 420 lb-ft of torque, at a peak of 14psi, on 87 octane. Plus the BRZ(and ecoboost) have loads more valve control than the old 2.5RS engines circa 99-01.

Plus I wonder how crazy our community will get with D-4s......gas port, alky DI anyone?

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:44 AM   #171
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The BMW e30 M3 (widely regarded to be one of the most influential drivers cars ever made) only sold 5,000 units in it's 4 year production life.
I'm pretty sure that's because at the time it was a limited production vehicle created specifically for racing homoligation, unlike any other M3 after.
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Old 03-28-2012, 11:02 AM   #172
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I guess we'll see. However, I'd argue that this car can't really be compared to either of those. The 2.5RS didn't exactly rewrite the book on providing a pure driving experience, and the E30 M3 was a much, much more expensive car in its day.

I know magazine racing only takes you so far, but I can't remember this much media hype about driving experience in a long, long time. Usually being slower than expected results in a total write-off by the media; instead, people are raving about this car's "intangibles" and saying that the numbers don't matter. Maybe this really is a special car. In any case, you can bet people are paying attention based on how many orders have already been placed.
It's the hype word that's worrying me. Hype usually precedes buyers remorse.

The 2.5RS was an underachiever in the numbers but was hyped up by the rally fanbois (it was also easy to live with on a daily basis, being far more practical than the FR-S/BRZ).

The M3 came out during a very strong economy (when BMW was really booming) and the numbers weren't all that impressive then, either.

The FR-S orders are all from dealers.. not customers.. since Scion hasn't opened up preorders in the USA like Subaru has.

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Comparing the success of boosting old 2.5RS to the new BRZ engine, I feel, is apple's 2 oranges.

We have years of boosting RS's experience and the best we can do with the BRZ is bench race it.............so I will.

The BRZ could turn out to be quite boost happy. With DI, its a totally different ball game. I.E. the ecoboost engine in the f150 is 10/1 CR, makes 420 lb-ft of torque, at a peak of 14psi, on 87 octane. Plus the BRZ(and ecoboost) have loads more valve control than the old 2.5RS engines circa 99-01.

Plus I wonder how crazy our community will get with D-4s......gas port, alky DI anyone?

Just my 2 cents.
How is the aftermarket tuning on the D-4S systems coming along? Last I checked (a few months ago), the ECUs are encrypted and people adding boost to the IS-F (which has a lower compression ratio) are using standalone ECUs.

I know it's hard for the Subaru community to accept.. but this may not be a popular tuner car like the WRX.. Sure, there are suspension mods.. but I think most drivers are going to really like the OEM setup. On the plus side, that will hopefully mean the market for upgrades will be mostly on the higher end.

Of course, there will always be the ultra-low BCracing type coilovers for the herrafrush monkeys.

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I'm pretty sure that's because at the time it was a limited production vehicle created specifically for racing homoligation, unlike any other M3 after.
Oh? What series was the M3 being homologated for by being sold in the USA?
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Old 03-28-2012, 11:21 AM   #173
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Which is a completely different kind of car.. but yes, far more value unless you spend 90% of your driving time delivering tofu to the village on the other side of the mountain.
All kidding aside, we all know that that animation will be the biggest driver behind the sale of this car, right?
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Old 03-28-2012, 11:46 AM   #174
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Aww... but we were all being soo productive...
Alrighty

The E60 was $37,600 ($46,500 inf adj) in 2003. The price is vastly different than this car, and while there are obviously differences in trim between these two cars, you can't make a direct comparison to the sales numbers of the two cars 10 years apart and at least $10K difference in price. Strong economy or not, that's not even close to a car that the average person would buy.

Hype also precedes record sales.

Practicality, price - these are all subjective comments. There is also a 2008 Hatch Poll that states that 45% of NASIOC didn't like the new hatch - does this mean that the hatch would ultimately fail because the design is wrong? No... it just means Subaru brought in a bunch of buyers that either A) didn't take the poll, or B) never bought an Impreza before. NASIOC polls are useless.

Isn't the ECU on the FRS unlocked for easier aftermarket tuning?

Since when was this vehicle about back-road bombing at the car's limits?
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:15 PM   #175
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How much more ECU tuning is there going to be with such an already high strung, high compression engine?

It isn't a turbo engine that one can just turn up the boost, feather the timing back a bit to avoid blowing the intake off the heads, and backing off the safety-margin-rich mixture a bit, and reaping the increased horsepower.

Maybe another 20 horsepower at MOST, even with a cold air intake, and full exhaust system... which considering the geography of the forward-wrapping exhaust, is probably going to be a bit expensive...

M96 and M97 Porsches and S2000's engine and the like are pushing pretty much their full potential with 110-120hp/liter.

FA20 is already at 100hp/liter, on a budget, and with a warranty. There may not be a lot of potential left on the table by it being over-built. It probably isn't overbuilt much at that price, just enough to be warrantable as factory-tuned.

This isn't necessarily the same engine specification as the future turbocharged FA/FB engines being developed for WRX/STI, just as an atmospheric EJ25 is not just a de-turbo'd EJ257.

There isn't a lot of potential left on the table with the Coyote 5.0 V8 either, which is similarly optimized with high compression, and near-ideal ECU tuning, and doesn't make 100hp/liter.

The larger the displacement, the less likely an engine is to achieve that volumetric efficiency without forced induction. However, the percentage change on a larger engine is a smaller delta, even if the specific number of horsepower gain is larger. A 20hp gain on an FA20 is 10% of 200hp. A 20hp gain on a Boss 302 with the track key, over a standard GT, is 5% of 400hp. the 20hp number is easier to gain with more displacement to work with, but works out to a smaller per volume unit change.
If 5% improvement is easier to gain, that means 10hp on an FA20. 200hp->210hp.


BTW, it is a logical inference, that if the car is about handling, and not suited for people who want to do other things... that exploiting the handling on a remote, low-traffic road is likely the purpose.
The people who carry the water for this car say:
It isn't about power, it doesn't have that much, and as such may be at a dis-advantage on the track's straightaways.
It isn't about long distance, it isn't spacious or comfortable enough to be suited for long distance touring, and probably would be bounced and blown around, which causes driver fatigue.
It isn't about scenery like a drop-top Miata, the fixed roof is for handling by structural rigidity.
It isn't about passengers, nobody can fit in the rear seat, and it isn't a sedan or wagon.
It isn't about all weather, because it doesn't have Subaru's AWD advantage.
It isn't about commuting, as it isn't friendly for car-pooling, and the fuel efficiency isn't as good as other economy cars.
It isn't about anything but handling, so the fans of this car say.

IF it is about handling, and nothing else... then it is about exploiting the handling on a curvy, not congested road. Something that takes up a small minority of most public road driver's seat time.

Last edited by HipToBeSquare; 03-28-2012 at 12:31 PM.
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