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02-23-2013, 08:59 AM | #51 |
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What's interesting is that BMWs M division is going all manual.
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02-23-2013, 09:01 AM | #52 | |
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Quote:
Manuals might be a little more engaging, but the current automated transmissions are sooo good (reliability, fuel efficiency, engagement,...) that manuals are unnecessary but only to purists. I'm sure some old school purist writers still prefer a typewriter (goes for some good money on ebay) where each keystroke actually stamp out the characters. Almost everyone just use computers now without even thinking about purchasing a typewriter. The Computers also brought new innovation and fun. I think this relates to automated transmissions. It brings a new era/meaning in engagement and fun factor. Because we are used to manuals, will take some time to adjust. But I still hope to pick up a 997 GT3 someday. Last edited by 4wdwrx; 02-23-2013 at 09:07 AM. |
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02-23-2013, 09:16 AM | #53 | |
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You missed my point entirely. He makes it sound like they went backwards. They didn't. The car still sells fantastically. Wonder why. |
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02-23-2013, 09:19 AM | #54 | |
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And keep in mind. I am not a commissioned "salesperson". My role at the dealership has many facets. Shoot, a lot of times I do "lot boy" duties. Definitely not going to right a book here of what I actually do there. And my main job is firefighting. Only at the dealer on my off time. |
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02-23-2013, 09:30 AM | #55 | |
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;D I love saying that. |
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02-23-2013, 09:34 AM | #56 |
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02-23-2013, 09:38 AM | #57 |
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02-23-2013, 09:44 AM | #58 | ||
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Vehicle:2002 JDM STI/WRX WRB |
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Faster? Barely. Just look at the lap times, only minor improvements over 10yrs. It's time to stop drinking the kool aid they sell you, the STi has been stagnant for 10yrs. That's a fact. They gained 150lbs over 10yrs......which to be fair is not that much compared to what some have gained.....but they didn't add any power over 10yrs. Also, don't forget the new tires are better, which helps with lap times Whether or not it still sells well is irrelevant in this discussion. I also never said they went backwards, but that they have become a "barge". Subaru screwed up by wasting tons of money on a new body style every 2yrs, money that could have gone into RD for the engine. What's amusing, is that the regular WRX saw a HUGE improvement over the last 10yrs. It's lap times plummeted, more displacement/power etc etc. But they let the STi rest on it's laurels, that's lazy. Take a look at the Ring lap times. Over 10yrs they only dropped 10sec at the Ring. Porsche? They dropped 30sec's from the 911 Carrera S time. It's simple, add power, remove weight and improve aero/suspension. And don't waste time/money on endless body changes. Look at Ford/Chevy who have dramatically improved their cars. Meanwhile the STi is still prone to terminal understeer and needs more power. The WRX and STi came to the US and woke up Ford/Chevy who were guilty of being stagnant for a long time. Question is, now that they (Ford/Chevy) picked up their game, when will Subaru wake and realize they've been left in the dust. Last edited by LIQUIDSK8S; 02-23-2013 at 10:38 AM. |
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02-23-2013, 10:36 AM | #59 |
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Time to buy used before prices skyrocket!
Or everyone really is fat and lazy and we can scoop up manual 911s for the cheap. Ha. |
02-23-2013, 10:51 AM | #60 |
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Saying the STI did not gain power is not technically true
The When they 'adjusted' the way HP was calculated the STI dropped from 300 HP for one model year. They next model year they upped it back to 300 if I recall. |
02-23-2013, 10:52 AM | #61 | |
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Quote:
For that last sentence, the answer is Jan/Feb of next year. You didn't really compare what Subaru has done to it's car to what Porsche has done to theirs, did you? The Subaru isn't meant to compete with the Ford/Chevy anyway. Subaru doesn't build the WRX/STI for the enthusiast. They build it for a family oriented person who wants fun. You going to buy a Mustang/Camaro to haul your family around?......Really? It was fun to say "my STi beat your Mustang"(which I didn't) back in the day, but I EXPECT something with twice the cylinders to be faster. You wanna talk price? Yes, it sucks Subaru couldn't be as cheap as a Mustang; but, Subaru is also a MUCH smaller company with not much profit margin on those cars. Should they build them here to help with that? I think so, but that is another HUGE cost for the company. I think they should step up or they will be hampered by it. The fact that it is still selling IS relevant. You are saying Subaru screwed up and are basically not building a car that is worth it. Apparently there are many people out there that disagree with you. And to a company who wants to make money, that is all that matters. $$$$$. The reason I think it has taken this long is that it has taken a good bit of R&D to get to that next level that you want; which will come next year. I drink the kool-aid because the kool-aid is good. I don't necessarily HAVE to have a Subaru. It's just there isn't anything out there that has swayed me away yet. There are some very nice things out there, but considering everything, it just isn't there. AWD is a MUST with me and for the price, you can't beat Subaru's system. And technically Subaru has added 12hp to the STI over 10 years... |
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02-23-2013, 10:52 AM | #62 | |
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Until they do something relatively substantial with the sti, I'll personally opt for the wrx. |
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02-23-2013, 10:54 AM | #63 | |
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If I could only type just that much faster....... ONE minute!! |
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02-23-2013, 11:22 AM | #64 | |
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Quote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmJH84FnQa8 |
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02-23-2013, 11:30 AM | #65 |
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I'll argue that concentrating on 3 pedals makes driving safer. When you're driving a manual it's hard to get distracted and text/make phone calls/play with radio because you need to think about what you're doing. Concentrating on my driving makes me feel more alert to my driving, maybe it's just me.
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02-23-2013, 11:49 AM | #66 | ||||||
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Doubtful, I expect yet another minor change while wasting money on a new body. Power output won't change by much if at all. Quote:
My point would have been silly if I said "the new 991 does X lap time, why cant the STi do X lap time as well" But that's not what I said, I was showing the difference in improvement over a decade. This is ENTIRELY relevant. Quote:
And yes, they do build it for the enthusiast while also grabbing the family guy who wants a fun/performance car that can also carry his family around. Depends on how big the family is. Married with 1-2 kids? Sure Mustang/Camaro would be fine. I would do the same with a 991. Quote:
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Countless dyno graphs say otherwise |
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02-23-2013, 12:44 PM | #67 | |
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you mean you can't text while driving a manual?? to add to the conversation: manual keeps me more alert/awake during long commutes where there is constant speed changes. That, and the feeling from a perfect 4-3 or 3-2 downshift under hard deceleration makes a 5 spd win/win for me. |
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02-23-2013, 01:05 PM | #68 |
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A few years ago I would have been really sad about this, but it really doesn't matter to me anymore as the newer Porsches just don't enamor me like the older ones. If I buy a Porsche it's going to be 993 or older.
Yeah Porsches are fast and can scoot, can anybody list is "supercar" that isn't? If you want a drivers car, you're not buying something in the 90K price range, that's for sure. You're buying something in the 90K price range to show other people that you can afford the top ****. Manual transmission in not considered top **** to people anymore as its slower, and old tech. It's mainly praised by those of us who value driving pleasure etc. I'll keep buying MT as long as it's offered on new models, and I don't think it's going away in the 20K-40K bracket for a while. I sympathize with my fellow MT enthusiasts, but times are changing and we just have to roll with the punches. |
02-23-2013, 01:20 PM | #69 | |||
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The shifts in that video are plain and simply slower thanDSG speeds. Hell, I designed a pneumatic shift setup for use on a sequential transmission in college. The shifts using the pneumatic cylinder were at least 4 times faster than those made using a hand lever for the sequential box (a setup like you posted in your video). We measured them as part of a project. And that was just our crappy setup, using paintball gun parts, a single linear actuator, a couple of solenoids and aluminum paddles. You simply cannot pull your arm as fast as you can fire the linear actuator with a high pressure source. It's a wonder you didn't make it through engineering school. 10 seconds of research online would have let you know just how fast the DSG/PDK, etc. shift. Manually-actuated boxes, EVEN SEQUENTIAL DOGBOXES, simply cannot match them. All that aside, I can tell you've never driven a sequential dogbox before. There's about 100 other reasons it isn't even remotely an option for a production car, or suitable for regular street use. Last edited by SoapBox; 02-23-2013 at 02:33 PM. |
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02-23-2013, 02:25 PM | #70 |
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Man, are you guys really arguing over whether 50 milliseconds is worse than 8 milliseconds for a street driven car? A dog box would make a horrible daily driver box. This is true.
So now we are in a penis fight with whose DSG can shift faster...I can see the magazines bragging on how this box is 0.8 milliseconds faster so therefore it is better. That means if you drove flat out to work banging off redlines you would get there like 30 seconds faster maybe! Wow, I am sold |
02-23-2013, 02:32 PM | #71 | |
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No one is saying it would matter, at all. He said a sequential dogbox is faster than today's automated manual transmissions. I told him he was wrong, and instead of looking it up for himself, he decided to continue to spout BS. Like he does all the time. So now he knows. In addition to being completely unstreetable, they're not faster. |
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02-23-2013, 02:47 PM | #72 | ||
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But the adjustments made to the 911 have been far more significant, plus the prices have climbed significantly. They've given it a full 100 hp since the 996 Carrera S debuted with 300 hp. You're not going to see a production STI (at least not meant for our shores) with much more punch than it has now without it costing a lot more. Obviously Subaru won't want the STI to be a $40k+ car. The 911 on the other hand has had a significantly higher pricetag that its clientele probably won't flinch about. |
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02-23-2013, 03:28 PM | #73 | |||
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Just did some more research on the 350Z/370Z, and they followed my point about doing small changes each year and how it adds up. They added power and improved the drivetrain little by little going from 287hp up to 337hp. Granted the STi would have a much harder time seeing these gains, they could still have easily seen 20-30hp with the money they spent on body changes. What's very impressive for the 370Z/350Z is that they kept the MSRP the same from 2003 to 2013 despite adding power and reducing weight in terms of the chassis. Because the 350Z chassis without the safety equipment would weigh more than a 370Z stripped of safety features. Quote:
If you make small changes every year, eventually it amounts to a big change. The STi has seen a price increase, but barely any performance increase. Most companies will improve the engine a little every year, so maybe between years there's only a 5-10hp difference......... but after a decade suddenly they have 50+hp more than they did before. But like I said before, Subaru was too concerned with changing the body style every 5 sec that they threw away money that could have been better used on the chassis/engine. |
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02-23-2013, 03:38 PM | #74 | |
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I can't even get into how disappointed I am with the STi. I feel that '04 was the best year. It would have been nice to see it progress in performance vs. get fatter.
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991 doesn't compete with 458. It competes with Corvette, Viper, GTR. All of which are continuing after more power and less weight. I never complained about the 991, it's a great car. Hopefully I can drive my friend's S manual to get a good comparison with the PDK. |
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02-23-2013, 03:54 PM | #75 | |
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Also, some might wonder how I got 6-700lbs lighter than the 458. First, the published weight for the 458 was wrong. Wikipedia has it at 3,274lbs. BUT private owners and magazines did independent weighing and found it to actually be 3500lbs...... gotta love when Ferrari lies (check out the Chris Harris blog for more info on their lies). The base 991 weighs 3,075lbs, and the GT3 tends to be 200-300lbs lighter than the standard. Most are expecting the GT3 to weigh in around 2800-2900lbs while making over 500hp........ that's insane. |
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