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04-13-2012, 03:55 PM | #601 | |
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Tuning is not all science and will not always be "perfect." There's plenty of us that tune cars to a respectable AFR (not 11:1 all the time) with high boost (based on compressor charts, previous experience, and other research) and timing set to a level where knock does not occur under ALL conditions (e.i. aggressive driving, track, sustained 4th-5th gear pulls, etc..), that also explore other areas of the map that are used everyday such as part/light throttle, cruise, etc... *NOTE* i will agree that there are too many "pro tuners" out there that use a dynojet to tune a car from start to finish and the tune as a whole sucks. I encounter this issue weekly.... Knowing you, I'm not offended by your statement (hell- I learn alot from the posts you share pertanent information), but my problem is you talk a big game, but not every car you tune is as "perfect" as you make them out to be based on posts like the above....
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Last edited by dux10; 04-13-2012 at 04:02 PM. |
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04-13-2012, 04:04 PM | #602 | |
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04-13-2012, 04:27 PM | #603 | |
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LOL I like your hacks comments. I've personally never seen someone tune a car like that but I can imagine it happens. Some of the maps I've seen for cars were awful enough that I believe it. My own maps were not good when I started learning. But I also only played with my own car for it until I had a better grasp and then a few friends were generous enough to let me play with their cars to learn. I know it is wrong to tune a car by targeting 11:1 afr, running as much boost as you dare, and then running timing to the edge, but it actually works. It's also done by competent tuners at times almost exactly like that when they don't have the data to test a new setup properly. Whether they admit it or not is another story. Without actually testing the car at different altitudes, temperatures, in different humidity, with different fuel from different companies with different octane ratings and alcohol content, and then also tuning without the benefit of an egt gage at each port and prior to the turbo, with per cylinder tuning ability, the tune is never going to be perfect. Thats the bottom line. Luckily the tune doesn't have to be perfect because there is room for error. Even if you didn't know anything about tuning you would know that there are different methods for tuning that work well. Otherwise the oems that design build and tune the car and expect to get 100k miles or even double and triple that would not have tuners "improving" on their work and getting more power by tuning differently. |
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04-14-2012, 09:01 AM | #604 | ||
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04-14-2012, 01:06 PM | #605 | |
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I'm well aware of this and use these compensations myself. However, Clark is stating that he uses a dyno cell for optimum results. This is fine, but can the dyno cell alter the humidity, elevation, and temperature to a point where he can "correctly/perfectly" setup his compensation tables? This was my point I was trying to get across as he makes it seem as though this is the only properly way to tune "correctly" and he's the only one in the world capable of doing so.... Since the current conversation doesn't add to thread topic, I am going to leave it all alone. lol |
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04-14-2012, 02:50 PM | #606 |
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^^ Exactly.
If we could get all the elitists off their high horses we might have advanced the conversation. As it is, and has been seemingly forever, it's a thread about ego, not information. After too many tunes, mine and others, too many months and too many years looking for insight in here and anywhere else that the scent is keen, I'm content with the tune I've labored over too long on my own. But the process has jaded me. And I'm burnt... out, I think. Shortly this will be history for me. Mr. Turner, et all, can have it. Enjoy. I'll be driving a BRZ.... edit: NOT. SeeeeeYa. Last edited by SeeeeeYa; 07-16-2012 at 07:02 AM. Reason: Wasn't "burnt" and haven't quit. |
04-14-2012, 08:49 PM | #607 | |
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And some people have a vested interest in minimizing the distribution of that understanding. |
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04-15-2012, 06:03 AM | #608 | ||
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Clark, my apologies if you think I am attacking you but I believe I am right on this and you appeared to be the most vocal that this system does not work and it is only for the benefit of the community as a whole. New ideas should be tested as any engineer is aware... so one of your existing customers has offered to conduct an independant impartial comparison, would you like any particular conditions or tests applied to maintain accurate test data? 1/4 mile is planned but any other test data is welcome
Quote:
USDM, SADM, MEDM, EDM and AUDM motors have the same rest positions(I had Kelford's in my last STi and can confirm, customer in ) and this represented in my graph on previous page JDM is 20 degrees cam separation though but obviously the Liberty D.AVCS has slightly different specs dependant on engine year etc While VE is a good indicator, it is not what generates the most crank torque or acceleration. I do gas flow analysis for a full time career, this D.AVCS stuff is quite easy to calculate. Even if you calculate the possibilities in full degrees of cam angle, there is 1200 combinations per load site. My intake and exhaust columns and rows do not even 'align' since they use different values to get the right overall shape. Quote:
You have taken into account inlet and exhaust valves but you missed the '3rd' valve though... the big one on the front of the inlet manifold It controls airflow and if you generate more torque, you need less throttle angle to make the same amount of power, thus more manifold vacuum and that is why exhaust AVCS needs to drop a little since... the manifold vacuum generated induces EGR Any ideas on how I finish my sentence? |
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04-15-2012, 06:17 AM | #609 | |
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04-16-2012, 07:06 AM | #610 | |
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I did not consider effect of vacuum on the flow. Very interesting point. I will try this out in my next map rev. I already dropped my intake side considerably because more advance was just hurting numbers. I haven't been scrutinizing the exhaust side lately and clearly that was a mistake. I think I get it now. Very cool. |
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04-16-2012, 07:30 AM | #611 | |
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Come on guys, this isn't any different than any other profession out there. Would you go to a DIY forum for hardwood flooring and ask the installer to teach you how to install floors, walk you through the process, help you select the products and come over to your house to overlook it for free? Of course not. You cannot expect a professional to share their know-how for the "good of the community" completely. Any info that is handed out should be considered gravy, IMO. They could be saying nothing and I would not blame them. I don't consider myself an elitist. I know that this can be frustrating because it takes a lot of effort to really understand this topic. AVCS is arguably the toughest off all the tunable systems that you will touch. Set your expectations accordingly. I have over a decade of experience in an engineering field and I have the benefit of scientific eduction to help me along the way. Do you need all that? No, but it helps for sure. I have shared all of my work and I posted my maps on RR along with notes and started several discussion threads to help the community. I've received many PMs regarding certain topics and I make it a point to always respond, even if I cannot help. I suspect there are many other people on this forum that do the same. If you expect that people will just spoof feed you the information, you will be disappointed. Besides, you will not learn anything if you just take what people give you without doing some of the discovery yourself. |
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04-16-2012, 01:37 PM | #612 | |
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04-20-2012, 01:21 AM | #613 |
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I can vouch for the throttlehappy throttle maps, car became easier to modulate.
It is well understood that manifold vacuum helps with EGR if AVCS is tuned for it, but can we quantify EGR by DIFFIRENCIAL pressure between the intake manifold and exhaust backpressure? Any exhaust improvements theoretically reduce backpressure therefore lessen EGR effect and improve scavenging. My biggest concern with tuning avcs is loosing fuel out the exhaust valve. To determine this does anyone actually know when the ecu sprays fuel in relation to the (always changing) intake valve opening. If I were to run 25 degrees intake AVCS BTDC , does this mean the injectors are spraying into the exhaust? I understand that subaru definately has a measure for this still undefined in the definitions. |
04-22-2012, 09:51 PM | #614 |
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AVCS Link standalone setup question
I'm a bit of a subanoob
I'm installing an AVCS turbo motor in a buggy with a link extreme. A little confused about the inputs. The base setup from Link only shows 2 inputs, one from the LH cam (trigger/sync) and one from the RH cam pos sensor. I figured I would need the cam sync and both cam pos sensors to make it work. I'm assuming the base map will need to be wired correctly to work with a pre-existing setup, just want to be sure i get it right the first time. I figured the cam trigger/sync input would not reflect the actual cam position but would be more like a pre-avcs position signal since there are 3 cam sensors. Am I just way off? Please enlighten... Thanks Mike |
04-22-2012, 09:54 PM | #615 |
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Very few here will be able to help you Mike. I suggest you call Neil at Performance developments in california for help wiring AVCS up.
C |
04-26-2012, 04:22 PM | #616 |
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If I leave EXHAUST avcs solenoids and sensors unplugged in dual avcs motor (EDM 2008 STI EJ257) and dont plug the oil flow to the sprockets,
at what posiotion/angle does the exh. cams rest? And is avcs sprocket free to rotate then, or is there pressure in the lines through cams? Looking at the stock avcs maps they have 17deg retard at max power area. So I assume if I want to run the motor with exh. avcs disabled I need to lock the cams to that position? Or use solid sprockets which seal the cam properly as the oil seal surface is on the sprocket. Building a spare motor to my 2003 EDM STi which is single avcs. |
04-26-2012, 07:41 PM | #617 | |
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04-27-2012, 11:27 AM | #618 |
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^^^ thats some trick advice. I would seal them at 20 degrees..
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04-27-2012, 11:32 AM | #619 |
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The cams would wonder around like 4 drunks leaving the bar. Not one would be on the same path.
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04-27-2012, 12:24 PM | #620 | |
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Guess I will try to machine some sort of fillets to the oil chambers inside the exhaust sprockets to lock them near 20 degrees or so. |
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04-27-2012, 02:37 PM | #621 | |
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05-01-2012, 07:24 AM | #622 |
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0* = No Retard from the AVCS system.
Therefore the Ex. Cam sits in the most Advanced position which is roughly 126* BTDC. Keep in mind that normally Ex. centerlines are BTDC and Intake are ATDC. Single AVCS cars run the Ex. Cam at 113* BTDC centerline. If we compare that to the Dual AVCS cars which run the Ex. Cam at 126* - 17* = 109* BTDC. Therefore they run more retarded. Advancing the Ex. Cam and retarding the In. Cam therefore creating a higher LSA should certainly give better results at the topend IF you don't run into DET. Don't forget that changing CAM timing has a HUGE effect on dynamic C/R as the overlap changes. If you must run AVCS Ex. pulleys I would do the following: - Plug the insides with the Pulley in the 0* position as there is a spring loaded bead locking them. Use aluminium plugs for this to prevent movement. This is CRITICAL!! - This puts the Ex. Cam at 126* BTDC. However for a more "normal" operation we might want to RETARD them by one tooth on the belt. The CAM pulley has 48 teeth. One teeth is therefore 360* / 48 = 7.5* Keep in mind this is CAM TIMING. Crank timing is DOUBLE that. So it changes 15*!! However 126* - 15* = 111* BTDC. Right in between the Single AVCS 113* and the Dual AVCS 109*.... Noice Cheers, Jasper. |
05-01-2012, 08:26 AM | #623 | |
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I'm not sure I can help you since I have never worked with the Link ECUs. However looking at what you mentioned I reckon the following: The Cam Sync (Phase signal) is the LH sync but also the LH AVCS position signal. EG. this signal has 2 functions. The RH AVCS is just that ... A CAM position signal. On the LH and RH AVCS positions there should be 3 KEYS that should correspond to when a Tooth is passing the sensor. For the LH and RH sensors there should be "Latch points" or certain marks on the Crank degrees where it expects a TOOTH. EG. they should be around: 150, 510, 690 degrees for LH/RH (VVT1) (Some software swappes RH and LH ) 330, 510, 690 degrees for LH/RH (VVT2) (Unfortunately the same as above applies) Perhaps your ECU still needs some OFFSETs to be setup. On my ECU I am running: 120, 480, 660 degrees 311, 490, 672 degrees. This is to ENSURE that the ECU reads the CAMs at exactly 0* when they are in FULL retard. EG. when this is not setup properly you may see that you are reading 1.5* of CAM or even upto 4.5* of CAM when it is not there. This WILL cause integrator wind up and slow response of the cams. Make sure the cams READ 0* or even -0.25* to make sure you are able to target and HIT 0*. Not sure whether it helps you as you run a different ECU but I guess approach should be similar. Cheers, Jasper. |
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05-01-2012, 09:16 AM | #624 | |
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Now that I've researched more it seems that the cam sensors are different in my 2 motors. So I would need to run the EJ207 cams in the EJ257 heads anyway because the trigger part on the intake camshaft is different. EJ207 uses 4 trigger points at the cam and 2 wire induction sensor and EJ257 uses 3 trigger points and 3 wire HAL sensor. Just not sure yet if the cams are interchangeable between the heads as my only set of EJ207 cams are in the running motor in the car |
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05-01-2012, 09:21 AM | #625 |
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Are you sure about the different CAM position wheels and sensors?? I highly doubt that.....
Cams are intechangeable as far as I know. Slightly longer duration but not that much. Cheers, Jasper. |
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