Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday March 28, 2024
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > News & Rumors > Non-Subaru News & Rumors

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-07-2008, 12:26 PM   #1
AVANTI R5
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 73805
Join Date: Nov 2004
Vehicle:
24 TypeS ZO6
White

Default Should Taxpayers Back a High-End Electric Carmaker?

Quote:
THE Tesla Roadster is an electric car that goes fast, looks sensational and excites envy. The seductive appearance, however, obscures some inconvenient truths: its all-electric technology remains woefully immature and don’t-even-ask expensive. If enough billionaires step forward to inject additional capital to keep the doors of its manufacturer, Tesla Motors, open, I’m happy for all parties.

If investors pass up the opportunity, however, why should taxpayers fork over the capital that Tesla needs? The Roadster is not much more than a functioning concept car that sells for $109,000. The company is requesting $400 million in low-interest federal loans as part of the $25 billion loan package for the auto industry passed by Congress last year.



The program is intended to encourage automakers to improve fuel efficiency, but should it be used for a purpose like this, as the 2008 Bailout of Very, Very High-Net-Worth Individuals Who Invested in Tesla Motors Act? Can you conceive any way that federal dollars could be put at greater risk — and for no equity in return, keep in mind — to benefit fewer people?


Tesla Motors, a privately held company based in San Carlos, Calif., has spent almost all of the $145 million in capital it has raised to date. It says it will soon receive another round of $40 million from its private investors to sustain operations.



In the start-up ecosystem of Silicon Valley these would be respectably large numbers, but in the automotive world, fully developing an entirely new line of technology can easily run $1 billion. That is what General Motors’ first attempt at an electric vehicle, the EV1, was estimated to have cost to develop in the 1990s.


Tesla says it would use the federal funds to move forward on plans to bring out a second-generation car, a less expensive sedan seating five. It’s also counting on rapid improvements in the core component of its powertrain — a thousand-pound pack of lithium-ion batteries — but such improvements don’t happen at the pace Tesla needs them to happen.


Tesla’s backers in Silicon Valley can be forgiven for hoping for a miraculous technical breakthrough, because Moore’s Law makes miracles appear in the Valley every day: costs drop by half every two years, again and again and again. The law is actually a rule of thumb, not a scientific law, and is based on the recurring doubling of transistors placed on an integrated circuit.



Unfortunately for Tesla, batteries are based on chemistry and have nothing to do with Moore’s Law. Lawrence H. Dubois, chief technology officer at ATMI, a semiconductor industry supplier, said, “With batteries, you can’t just squeeze more energy into a smaller and smaller space the way you can squeeze more transistors.”


Elon Musk, the chief executive of Tesla, said his company would benefit from what he called “a weak Moore’s Law,” referring to the 8 percent annual improvements in the price performance of lithium-ion batteries. But 8 percent, compounded, would bring too few benefits, too late to Tesla: it would take nine years to halve the price of its battery pack.



The company would not be saddled with such costly components had it not elected to pursue a design that endows its car with both high performance and a long range between charges — 244 miles, Tesla says. Earlier this month at the Los Angeles auto show, BMW unveiled its all-electric Mini E, with a smaller battery, a motor with about 20 percent less horsepower than Tesla’s and a shorter range, 150 miles. BMW believes that current technologies used in the all-electric vehicles have not been tested enough in real conditions to be ready to be sold to the public. It will begin by leasing for one year a fleet of 500 Mini E’s for $850 a month each. At the end of the lease term, the cars will be returned to BMW for testing.



Tesla would have needed a much smaller battery pack had it forsaken the all-electric design and instead offered a plug-in hybrid, a more affordable design that many auto manufacturers are readying for production, like that for the Chevrolet Volt. An electric motor provides the primary motive force, and a small internal combustion engine serves as an auxiliary source of power to extend the range that the car can go between charges.


The battery need be no bigger than what is necessary to provide enough juice to go 40 miles, the maximum daily round-trip commuting distance for 78 percent of surveyed households, according to a widely quoted Department of Transportation study in 2003.



Tesla pitches all-electric cars as the greenest form of personal transportation, eliminating vehicle emissions and helping to wean the United States from its dependence on foreign oil. The cars reduce air pollution indirectly, to whatever degree the power generation on the grid uses energy sources other than coal. And for households that install their own power-generating solar panels, electric cars can rightfully claim to attain truly zero emissions today.


LAST week, I visited the Tesla showroom in Menlo Park, Calif., and took the Roadster out on the highway. As I headed back to the showroom and waited at red lights, ready to hit the accelerator and fly, I realized that I was experiencing a guilty pleasure derived not just from the speed available at my touch but also from temporarily possessing something that shouted to the world its exclusiveness.


Tesla says it is assembling about 15 cars a week and has delivered only about 80 to date. Many of those have gone to the Valley’s billionaires and centimillionaires who are Tesla investors as well as early customers; these include Sergey Brin and Larry Page, the co-founders of Google, and Jeff Skoll, co-founder of eBay. The company’s principal financier is Mr. Musk, who attained considerable wealth as a co-founder of PayPal.



I wonder how Tesla’s course has been influenced by at least some of its investors being helplessly smitten by the world’s quietest dragster.


Mr. Musk said: “I’m not doing this because I think the world has a shortage of sports cars.” But his customers must be loaded with green in order to go green.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/30/bu...er=rss&emc=rss
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
AVANTI R5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 12-07-2008, 01:03 PM   #2
Hondaslayer
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 4562
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Auburn, WA
Vehicle:
2014 Electric Datsun
2005 Adventure van

Default

Wait, wait, wait.

Tesla has only spent $145 million to date over the course of what? 3 years? and now they want $400 million? Am I reading that correctly?
Hondaslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2008, 01:57 PM   #3
shikataganai
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 92634
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hondaslayer View Post
Wait, wait, wait.

Tesla has only spent $145 million to date over the course of what? 3 years? and now they want $400 million? Am I reading that correctly?
that's the difference between the capacity to build 12 Roadsters per week and cranking out Whitestars in significant volumes.

i, for one, support Tesla receiving DOE funds. that's what the fund is designed for, and the Whitestar could well pave the way for a true mass market electric vehicle (possibly through Tesla's powertrain business -- they're reputed to be the supplier for the electric underpinnings of the Mini E).
shikataganai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2008, 03:16 PM   #4
Hondaslayer
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 4562
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Auburn, WA
Vehicle:
2014 Electric Datsun
2005 Adventure van

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
that's the difference between the capacity to build 12 Roadsters per week and cranking out Whitestars in significant volumes.

i, for one, support Tesla receiving DOE funds. that's what the fund is designed for, and the Whitestar could well pave the way for a true mass market electric vehicle (possibly through Tesla's powertrain business -- they're reputed to be the supplier for the electric underpinnings of the Mini E).
O.k, that makes better sense.
Hondaslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2008, 05:01 PM   #5
Mike Wevrick
RIP 1/19/64 - 7/23/11
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 24654
Join Date: Sep 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: saraseager.com
Vehicle:
1957 Taggart Comet
atlasshruggedpart1.com

Default

Quote:
BMW unveiled its all-electric Mini E, with a smaller battery, a motor with about 20 percent less horsepower than Tesla's and a shorter range, 150 miles
Sounds to me like the "problem" has already been solved, and at zero cost to US taxpayers.
Mike Wevrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2008, 05:07 PM   #6
shikataganai
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 92634
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Wevrick View Post
Sounds to me like the "problem" has already been solved, and at zero cost to US taxpayers.
even though it's reputed to use a Tesla powertrain the Mini E isn't for sale. 500 of them are for lease at $850/month. this is not a sustainable business model, and this plant would help to address the economies of scale.
shikataganai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2008, 05:56 PM   #7
movieman
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 169683
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Vehicle:
2015 Forester 2.5
Red

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
that's the difference between the capacity to build 12 Roadsters per week and cranking out Whitestars in significant volumes.
Who's going to be queuing up to buy $60,000 electric sedans from Tesla?

Even the Volt isn't going to be that expensive if GM survives, and would have much better long-distance performance (since it can run on gas as well as electricity) and a global servicing network for purchasers.

Tesla just seem to be a company looking for a market; which is precisely why investors don't want to give them money. They should probably forget building cars and just supply powertrains to companies who can afford to build them.
movieman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2008, 07:12 PM   #8
Ghosthound
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 110979
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sacramento, Ca
Vehicle:
2010 FJ Cruiser
1999 Miata

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by movieman View Post
Who's going to be queuing up to buy $60,000 electric sedans from Tesla?

Even the Volt isn't going to be that expensive if GM survives, and would have much better long-distance performance (since it can run on gas as well as electricity) and a global servicing network for purchasers.

Tesla just seem to be a company looking for a market; which is precisely why investors don't want to give them money. They should probably forget building cars and just supply powertrains to companies who can afford to build them.
good point. they bit off more than they could chew but that doesnt mean its game over for them. they can just continue operating as a supplier until they are profitable enough to have their own automobile branch.
Ghosthound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2008, 08:26 PM   #9
shikataganai
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 92634
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by movieman View Post
Who's going to be queuing up to buy $60,000 electric sedans from Tesla?

Even the Volt isn't going to be that expensive if GM survives, and would have much better long-distance performance (since it can run on gas as well as electricity) and a global servicing network for purchasers.

Tesla just seem to be a company looking for a market; which is precisely why investors don't want to give them money. They should probably forget building cars and just supply powertrains to companies who can afford to build them.
well, they have 1200 people who've placed a deposit on the Roadster to start... i think you underestimate the number of green-minded people who aren't flat broke.
shikataganai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2008, 09:07 PM   #10
JuggernautTCW
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 169223
Join Date: Jan 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
well, they have 1200 people who've placed a deposit on the Roadster to start... i think you underestimate the number of green-minded people who aren't flat broke.
you think 1200 is a lot?

green-minded ppl who arent broke buy prius, not tesla.

rich ppl who have nothing better to do place orders on hard-to-get cars like the tesla. they need to show the list of vehicles that those people with deposit on the tesla also have... you might see a lot of gas guzzlers on the list.
JuggernautTCW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2008, 09:46 PM   #11
Chromer
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 20325
Join Date: Jun 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Vehicle:
08 Yamaha WR250R
07 Suzuki DL650

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
even though it's reputed to use a Tesla powertrain
At the LA show it was revealed that the Mini's drivetrain came from California's AC Propulsion, not Tesla.

Interesting aside, the guy who designed Tesla's motor and power electronics came from Aerovironment, which later became AC Propulsion. The power systems in the Volt and the EV1 also trace their roots to Aerovironment...

I wonder if Miles, Aptera, Roush and Detroit Electric will apply for loans from the fund too? There are a lot of smaller US players dabbling in the electric car space right now, most being fairly quiet (Miles), and some being very much in stealth mode (Detroit Electric).
Chromer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2008, 09:35 AM   #12
Mike Wevrick
RIP 1/19/64 - 7/23/11
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 24654
Join Date: Sep 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: saraseager.com
Vehicle:
1957 Taggart Comet
atlasshruggedpart1.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
even though it's reputed to use a Tesla powertrain the Mini E isn't for sale. 500 of them are for lease at $850/month. this is not a sustainable business model, and this plant would help to address the economies of scale.
Well, its a start. The point is the vehicle has already been developed. Why should taxpayers subsidize US companies to reinvent it?
Mike Wevrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2008, 11:05 AM   #13
robertrinaustin
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 51964
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Austin
Vehicle:
2008 STi, OB, EVO
Blk Sti and EVO, Navy OB

Default

Shouldn't they at least have a history of success before the government gives them any more money. Obviously if the business plan was good, they'd get their money from the market place. They only employee a small amount of people. They will produce very limited numbers of cars. Frankly, if the were gone tomorrow, they would not be missed except of course by the 1200 people that have paid for or made deposits on cars that will probably never be delivered any way.

Tesla is a bad investment.
robertrinaustin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2008, 11:25 AM   #14
JuggernautTCW
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 169223
Join Date: Jan 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertrinaustin View Post
Shouldn't they at least have a history of success before the government gives them any more money. Obviously if the business plan was good, they'd get their money from the market place. They only employee a small amount of people. They will produce very limited numbers of cars. Frankly, if the were gone tomorrow, they would not be missed except of course by the 1200 people that have paid for or made deposits on cars that will probably never be delivered any way.

Tesla is a bad investment.
exactly. why should the government save them if only a small number of ppl will be affected?... the ONLY reason i think the big 3 should be saved is so the families of the workers will not be on the streets. if the government even consider saving tesla, maybe they should also consider saving every single business thats going under... because frankly, most businesses that have gone out of business recently (example: Linens & Things) have more than 1200 potential customers... even for this burger joint thats near my house.
JuggernautTCW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2008, 11:37 AM   #15
shikataganai
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 92634
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Default

are you guys seriously making a utilitarian argument in favor of the bailouts? wow.

Mike Wevrick: this loan program was designed to support the development of more efficient cars -- that's why Tesla should be eligible. Tesla has a viable plan to do just that regardless of unfounded internet-forum aspersions on their market. QED.
shikataganai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2008, 11:44 AM   #16
justincredible
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 83633
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: The Mountains
Vehicle:
2012 bright green
box

Default

I would rather loan a few hundred million to Tesla than a few billion to bail out Chrysler.
justincredible is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2008, 11:57 AM   #17
Mike Wevrick
RIP 1/19/64 - 7/23/11
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 24654
Join Date: Sep 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: saraseager.com
Vehicle:
1957 Taggart Comet
atlasshruggedpart1.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post

Mike Wevrick: this loan program was designed to support the development of more efficient cars -- that's why Tesla should be eligible. Tesla has a viable plan to do just that regardless of unfounded internet-forum aspersions on their market. QED.
I understand that. I don't think it is good policy for gov't to subsidize development of more efficient cars (or any other specific/targeted goal), for several reasons:
A) If that were a desirable goal, the easiest way to reach it is to just raise gas taxes. Supply/demand forces will take care of the rest.
B) More efficient cars are already on the market or close to it (eg plug-in Prius). Why pay for something that has already been done at no cost to taxpayers?
C) Tesla specifically is a niche player targeting wealthy buyers. If they need money, let them raise it from the millionaires who want their product.
Mike Wevrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2008, 01:52 PM   #18
CryderSpeed
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 88816
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: GET BACK
Vehicle:
TO TWERK

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by justincredible View Post
I would rather loan a few hundred million to Tesla than a few billion to bail out Chrysler.
I came in here to post this.
CryderSpeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2008, 03:58 PM   #19
shikataganai
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 92634
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Wevrick View Post
I understand that. I don't think it is good policy for gov't to subsidize development of more efficient cars (or any other specific/targeted goal), for several reasons:
A) If that were a desirable goal, the easiest way to reach it is to just raise gas taxes. Supply/demand forces will take care of the rest.
B) More efficient cars are already on the market or close to it (eg plug-in Prius). Why pay for something that has already been done at no cost to taxpayers?
C) Tesla specifically is a niche player targeting wealthy buyers. If they need money, let them raise it from the millionaires who want their product.
1. raising gas taxes is tantamount to political suicide. i agree that it'd be a good idea but it's not going to happen. period.
2. the big 2.8 were the ones who wanted this money, presumably so that they could misuse it and fund their continued operations in an underhanded way. ask them why they thought it was so crucial that they lobbied to have it included in the TARP bill.
3. as detailed above even though my specific example of the Mini E was incorrect Tesla's technology may prove to have implications for the car world well beyond the Roadster.

take into account that the venture capital world is reeling from the lack of credit much as is the rest of the economy and you have a number of good reasons why investing in companies working to create greener cars would be in the public good.
shikataganai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2008, 09:47 AM   #20
robertrinaustin
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 51964
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Austin
Vehicle:
2008 STi, OB, EVO
Blk Sti and EVO, Navy OB

Default

Again, should we at least require some sort of success from Tesla before giving them $1, much less loan guaranties on $400 million. If you believe they're the future and deserve money, then by all means send them your money but please don't "volunteer" me and my money.

Also, Tesla is an aggregator of technology and not an innovator.
robertrinaustin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2008, 10:23 AM   #21
justincredible
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 83633
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: The Mountains
Vehicle:
2012 bright green
box

Default

Quote:
Tesla is an aggregator of technology and not an innovator.
show me another fully electric car with a 240 mile range.
Let alone a dead sexy one with hard to match acceleration.
justincredible is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2008, 10:39 AM   #22
KC
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 442
Join Date: Oct 1999
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: RI/SE Mass
Vehicle:
17 Imp Spurt
00 S2k

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertrinaustin View Post
Again, should we at least require some sort of success from Tesla before giving them $1, much less loan guaranties on $400 million. If you believe they're the future and deserve money, then by all means send them your money but please don't "volunteer" me and my money.

Also, Tesla is an aggregator of technology and not an innovator.
Define your vision of "success".

My own personal opinion is I don't think any PUBLICLY TRADED company should be getting any money from the Gov't (aka: us). Never mind privately held company like ChryCo and Tesla.

If they do, they should no longer be traded on the market and any and all profits go back to the american tax payer until the loan is re-paid.

If they continue to hemmorage money for over a year and fail to return a profit, they get folded.

Now, because there's no value to the stock in the company, and less than 50% of the country wants to buy any GM product, now the taxpayers are being forced to invest in the product still! Again... what's wrong with this picture? If I had faith in GM, I'd buy a GM product (before you question me... I have a '93 saturn and an '02 Tahoe). The rest of the country... they do not see value in GM. So they speak/spoke with their wallets.

Any bailout of them will do nothing other than to delay the inevetible, their ultimate folding.

--kC
KC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2008, 11:52 AM   #23
Mike Wevrick
RIP 1/19/64 - 7/23/11
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 24654
Join Date: Sep 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: saraseager.com
Vehicle:
1957 Taggart Comet
atlasshruggedpart1.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
1. raising gas taxes is tantamount to political suicide.
What do you call the massive increase in income tax we are all going to be facing to pay for all these bailouts and subsidies?
Mike Wevrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
??? Moment: Electric Carmaker Promises Remote Recharge? AVANTI R5 Non-Subaru News & Rumors 4 09-08-2009 09:46 PM
Where should I sell REALLY high end audio, like Monitor Audio and Renkus Heinz? twinbrd Off-Topic 23 05-13-2009 12:09 PM
Electric Carmaker Phoenix Motors Files for Bankruptcy Protection AVANTI R5 Non-Subaru News & Rumors 1 05-03-2009 04:15 PM
Should Taxpayers Really Be Funding 48 Year Old GM Retirees? AVANTI R5 Political Playground - Chaotic Neutral Edition 34 02-28-2009 03:52 PM
Hybrid-electric carmaker readies 220 mpg 'super car' AVANTI R5 Non-Subaru News & Rumors 3 05-30-2008 04:11 PM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2024 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission
Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.