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08-15-2005, 11:23 PM | #1 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 87454
Join Date: May 2005
Location: El Paso, Texas
Vehicle:2005 SAAB 9-2X Aero Silver |
Power Loss on a 9-2x with UTEC Stage 1 Map, Logs, Dyno Plots, Graphs included.
Update: There has been a substantial power increase after purchasing a TXS Tuner and getting the AFR ratios close to where they should be. It's amazing what increasing the AFR ratios from the low 10 range to the upper 10 range will do! I am now producing the wheel power and torque greater than expected from UTEC stage 1. See posts after post#3 for detail.
Below is an email I sent to TurboXS customer support today. I'd love to hear the opinions of those of you with extensive tuning experience: "Hello, I recently purchased a used UTEC for my 9-2X Aero Manual. The UTEC is Revision 6b and I am running the most current software 4.2c. I live in El Paso, Texas and we are at approximately 4000 feet above sea level. Premium fuel here is 91 Octane and I use Outlaw octane booster in every tank which should bring octane to the mid 92 range. The only modification other than the UTEC is a gutted stock up-pipe; the resonator box has not been removed. The previous owner loaded the latest Stage 1 map into the UTEC before shipping it to me and I compared the map with the Stage 1 map on your website before running it. The map seemed to match that on your website and made general sense; I've only made adjustments to the boost map and ABC and checked that various parameters were the correct ones for running on the 04+ WRX. I have run into several issues: -The stage one map has actually shown a power loss over stock as measured on the road by Dynamic Dyno. I understand that the base map is conservative with respect to fuel and timing but I still expected the base map to produce significant gains. UTEC timing is quite a bit lower than ECU timing from 2000-2750RPM and above 5500rpm. The injector#1 log runs close to 100% duty cycle in the upper RPM range and I logged at least one occassion where it hit 100%. Is this normal for stage 1? -There is significant hesitation between 2,000 and 3,000 RPM when accelerating normally. There is a significant difference in timing between the ECU and UTEC in many low load, low RPM sites and the AFR is more than 2 points richer from 2,000-2,500 RPMs. Are these two factors the cause of the hesitation? -Boost variation in 3rd gear is much greater than in 2nd gear. Is this normal? Is it due to the ABC? When using 3rd gear logs to tune the boost curve should i look at peak values or try to look at a filtered curve without being concerned about 0.5psi spikes going above my target boost level? I currently have the ABC open 3.0 turns. After driving around with the power loss and hesitation for a while I switched to the stock map but left the ABC open 3.0 turns. Peak boost remains close to what I was targeting in stage 1, Just over 15psi in 3rd gear but tapers quicker, to 8psi, by redline. The stock map - open ABC combination has produced significant gains over stock, is close to your stage 1 dyno plot except for the very top of the rev range (over 5500RPM), and has not shown any knock in the log files. Is it safe/recommendable to use the stock map fueling and timing with the ABC open 3.0 turns as guidelines for developing a stage 1 map? With the stock map and ABC open 3.0 turns the injector #1 duty cycle peak is about 86.9% Versus 100% on the base stage 1 map. The stock map with the ABC fully closed peaks at 78.1% duty cycle. I know I really should be using a wideband AFR or EGT gauge to look at fueling but the duty cycle provides some indication of how rich the base stage 1 map is. I'd like to have a stage 1 map that shows gains over stock without having to purchase a wideband O2 sensor for AFR tuning. I planned on purchasing one of your wideband O2 sensor systems that interface with the UTEC when going to stage two but again, I felt the base stage 1 map should provide significant gains. Is there a less conservative map you can provide as a better starting point? I'm attaching a series of map tables, dyno plots, log files, and excel graphs to provide you with some data to better help me. The attachments are: my current stage 1 fuel map, stage 1 timing map, stage 1 boost map, stage 1 2nd gear log, stage 1 3rd gear log, stock 2nd gear log with ABC open 3.0 turns, timing comparison, injector duty cycle comparison, narrow band AFR comparison, and dyno plot comparison. You can also see most of this data and a few other plots on the engine management page of my project car web site: http://9-2x.dynamic-dyno.com/Downpip...anagement.html Please let me know if a different type of run or log would be useful in addressing my questions. Thanks." Below are pictures of the attachements mentioned: Any help you guys can provide is greatly appreciated! **** 9-2x project car web page: http://9-2x.dynamic-dyno.com
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Last edited by antrey; 12-16-2005 at 12:05 AM. |
08-15-2005, 11:44 PM | #2 |
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: soon to be somewhere else
Vehicle:1998 RS |
this is funny. UTEC's base maps are for crapola. They're not meant to produce power, they're meant to get your car to the dyno, which for stage 1 is just stoopid, because your car makes more power stock than it does with their stage "1" map on it. Go get it tuned if you're looking to make power.
Did they ever claim their base maps make MORE power BTW??? |
08-16-2005, 12:02 PM | #3 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 87454
Join Date: May 2005
Location: El Paso, Texas
Vehicle:2005 SAAB 9-2X Aero Silver |
I don't think their is an outright claim of more power with the base maps but I thought it was sort of implied that the base maps would produce some gains and then with fine tuning the gains could be maximized.
Anyhow, TurboXS responded promptly to my email: "While we do offer basemaps, sometimes every vehicle does not respond the same way to each map. Especially with the three variables you are fighting; elevation, heat and octane. A map derived at sea level, mild weather conditions and higher octane will not work add ideally for 91 octane. We recommend you purchase a wideband of some sort to help you tune your vehicle. Here is some insight into the stock ECU. The stock ECU has about a 4 second delay going into Open Loop. This means that in many instances you can have full boost and still be at 14.7:1 AFR. This is why you are seeing at least a 2 AFR point discrepancy. This condition will cause the vehicle to knock and eventually kill itself in short order. The hesitation you are describing is the sum of a few things. What you will need to do is watch your factory ignition timing curve, make sure your low end of your timing map looks very similar to your factory ECU’s actions when the UTEC is in control. The next thing you will want to do is watch your injector duty cycle around the 25% threshold point. Large jumps in IDC will cause a faint hiccup as well. If you can get these values within 2% it will definitely make your car a lot smoother. A few things to note: Your target boost pressure should be around 15-16 psi. If your injectors are going static you definitely have some head room as far as leaning the car out. This is something I wouldn’t do without have a wideband. The factory wideband is useless below 12.3:1, WRX’s typically are happiest at 10.8:1 - 11.1:1. This is very far off from where the factory narrow band can be valuable to tune." I have not experienced the stock map, 4 second delay going to open loop resulting in lean conditions and knocking under full boost. It does not seem to occur during dyno run conditions where the RPMs ramp up slowly and continuously. Is there a specific driving condition where the 4 second delay is made more obvious? On the graph below you can see that the stock map goes rich well before reaching full boost: **** 9-2x project car web page: http://9-2x.dynamic-dyno.com Last edited by antrey; 11-29-2005 at 08:37 PM. |
11-29-2005, 09:02 PM | #4 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 87454
Join Date: May 2005
Location: El Paso, Texas
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As expected, tuning the air-fuel ratios made all the difference. My first runs with the Base Stage 1 map showed air-fuel ratios that at times were too low for even the wideband to read! Targeting an AFR ratio of 10.8 and tweaking the boost map a bit yielded great power increases and I have experienced no knocking. There is still some room to increase the AFR in a few spots and to increase the boost at, and just before, 5000rpms. The seat of the pants difference is amazing and the vehicle feels stronger than I expected. The only negative has been that I have still been unable to eliminate the infamous hesitation near the TPS crossover point. Timing tweaks have reduced its frequency but it is still present. I'm hoping switching to firmware 5.0 may help address the hesitation.
The first graph compares a stock 3rd gear run to my current stage 1 map. I'm calling it stage 1E indicating its been through 5 iterations (A, B, C, D, & E). The second plot adds AFR, PSI, and Load Site Data from the UTEC log file recorded during the 3rd gear run. The AFR and PSI are multiplied by 10 for easier viewing on the scale required for the HP & Torque curves. The third and fourth plots are similar to the first two but show a 2nd gear run. The 2nd gear run shows later turbo spooling than the 3rd gear run but the gains are just as great. **** 9-2x project car web page: http://9-2x.dynamic-dyno.com Last edited by antrey; 11-29-2005 at 09:07 PM. |
11-29-2005, 09:28 PM | #5 |
Scooby Guru
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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Vehicle:1998 RS |
holy graphs
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11-30-2005, 08:39 AM | #6 |
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:2003 GGA MBP 12.9 / 105+ |
nice job.
afrs make a HUGE difference and the fact that the utec was running RICHER than even the oem ecu means it was probably deep into the 9s. with the 93 octane out here i can run high 11s:1. with 91 you might be able to push to to 11:1 without any knock. if you can, i'd try it. your basemap timing is very conservative, as i'd expect it to be. for reference, i run the same (or more aggressive) timing, scaled up, at 20psi w/a vf23. feels good to DIY, doesn't it? |
11-30-2005, 11:17 AM | #7 |
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Join Date: May 2005
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I'm actually running more aggressive timing than that shown in my first post. I'll post tonight after generating a timing plot for my current map. I've thought about using 11:1 as my target AFR but I've noticed that even with my current fuel map the AFRs can be in the low to mid 11s when going to full throttle from a roll. The dyno run conditions, starting from low rpm and staying in one gear to red line, seems to allow the AFRs more time to adjust. I'm afraid that if I shoot for 11:1 in a dyno run condition, I'll be hitting AFRs significantly higher during other driving conditions while at full boost. I probably will increase my AFRs slightly from the current tune while keeping a close eye on the knock column in the logs.
It does feel great to DIY! You learn alot and are better able to diagnose issues that may come up later. You have to be patient and careful, though, and not try to arrive at a final tune in only one iteration. **** 9-2x project car web page: http://9-2x.dynamic-dyno.com |
11-30-2005, 11:42 AM | #8 |
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So.. This software that it appears that you have created, eliminates the need to go to an actual awd dyno? Or am I just mis-reading? Excuse the ignorance.
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11-30-2005, 12:03 PM | #9 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 87454
Join Date: May 2005
Location: El Paso, Texas
Vehicle:2005 SAAB 9-2X Aero Silver |
Quote:
**** 9-2x project car web page: http://9-2x.dynamic-dyno.com |
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11-30-2005, 10:30 PM | #10 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 87454
Join Date: May 2005
Location: El Paso, Texas
Vehicle:2005 SAAB 9-2X Aero Silver |
Quote:
**** 9-2x project car web page: http://9-2x.dynamic-dyno.com |
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12-01-2005, 09:07 AM | #11 |
Scooby Guru
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ant...
since you're still on the oem turbo and have a lot of exhaust gas backpressure, you actually can get away with some high advance in the upper rpm region. the backpressure prevents efficient evacuation of exhaust gas, and that in turn dilutes the charge and reduces the tendency to detonate. the bottom line is that 30* at redline is actually not out of the realm of a good tune. as you open up the intake and exhaust and increase VE you end up reducing the necessary advance to make the same torque, and in fact will probably knock if you don't change the map, because the denser, less diluted charge lights off quicker. since you're very close to stock, hardware wise, you can use those upper rpm ignition numbers from the ecu as a pretty accurate guide to what you could be running with the utec. hth ken |
12-01-2005, 10:22 AM | #12 | |
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Quote:
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12-01-2005, 11:30 AM | #13 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 87454
Join Date: May 2005
Location: El Paso, Texas
Vehicle:2005 SAAB 9-2X Aero Silver |
Quote:
With version 5.0, I am more confident of using an aggressive tune since it has better active timing control based on knock and can compensate for air temps. With the new software, a map developed in cold weather has a better chance of continuing to work well in hot weather. **** 9-2x project car web page: http://9-2x.dynamic-dyno.com |
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12-16-2005, 12:14 AM | #14 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 87454
Join Date: May 2005
Location: El Paso, Texas
Vehicle:2005 SAAB 9-2X Aero Silver |
Upgraded to firmware 5.0
I made the jump to firmware 5.0 last weekend and am very happy with the results. The temperature compensation and other new features have helped me to produce more consistent power. The crossover hesitation has been reduced significantly (subjectively by about 75%), spool up is improved and further tuning has yielded even greater power. I'm a bit concerned that the torque levels being produced are nearly at stage 2 levels but I have experienced no knock and the AFR and Boost levels seem to be close to those recommended for stage 1. The improved power comes mostly from leaner AFRs where I was running too rich before and increasing boost to more closely match stage 1 target levels. Adjusting the boost curve helped alot in producing a flatter torque curve in the mid RPM range:
My latest 3rd gear dyno run: AFR, Boost, timing, etc. during run: Last edited by antrey; 12-16-2005 at 12:22 AM. |
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