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Old 09-22-2015, 01:06 PM   #1
Munky88
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Default Alignment issue

I've installed whiteline com c top hats, Swift spec-r springs, and Cusco rear lcas.

I went to subaru to get a custom alignment of -2.0f -1.5r and 0 toe. Apparently the best they can do is -.98fl -1.68fr -1.29rl -1.74rr. -0.01 front toe and -0.02 rear toe.

My alignment was fine before changing these parts. The tech said that when ever she changed the rear alignment the front would change too?

Input would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 09-22-2015, 01:10 PM   #2
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She?

I think I found your problem!

Just kidding, but seriously, she is clearly incompetent if she is claiming adjustments in the rear result in changes on the front.

Go somewhere else and get it aligned, then go back with a printout of your new alignment and get your money back from the place that failed.
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Old 09-22-2015, 01:31 PM   #3
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Yeah that's what I thought. The rear alignment shouldn't affect the front.
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Old 09-22-2015, 01:34 PM   #4
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The problem is that you went to SUBARU of all places to get an alignment. They will almost only allow factory values, no customer specified values.

You need to go to an alignment shop, that is not at a dealer. Try your local forum for references. Perhaps your location and profile information should be filled in to better assist you?
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Old 09-22-2015, 01:38 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by mitch808 View Post
The problem is that you went to SUBARU of all places to get an alignment. They will almost only allow factory values, no customer specified values.

You need to go to an alignment shop, that is not at a dealer. Try your local forum for references. Perhaps your location and profile information should be filled in to better assist you?

If he asked for a custom alignment, and they agreed to it, then they aren't only going to align it to factory specs.
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Old 09-22-2015, 01:41 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Annihilator817 View Post
If he asked for a custom alignment, and they agreed to it, then they aren't only going to align it to factory specs.
I don't agree. What an SA says, vs what a tech actually does are often at odds no matter what dealer you go to.
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Old 09-22-2015, 02:09 PM   #7
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I don't agree. What an SA says, vs what a tech actually does are often at odds no matter what dealer you go to.
But OP says he's spike directly to the tech that attempted to align the car.
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Old 09-22-2015, 02:24 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Annihilator817 View Post
But OP says he's spike directly to the tech that attempted to align the car.
Yeah I talked to the tech and she said that when ever she aligns the rear apparently it messes up the front alignment which i don't understand at all. I'm headed home now to check what she did and I'll make sure the top hat and perchs are all on right but I'm pretty sure they are.

Last edited by Munky88; 09-22-2015 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 09-22-2015, 02:44 PM   #9
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The statement is correct. When you change the rear settings it has an effect on the front. Preferred approach is set the rear first then the front, IMO. There is NO REASON that a good shop can't match camber from side to side with adjustable LCA frt camber plates or bolts...sloppy work.
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Old 09-22-2015, 03:03 PM   #10
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The statement is correct. When you change the rear settings it has an effect on the front. Preferred approach is set the rear first then the front, IMO. There is NO REASON that a good shop can't match camber from side to side with adjustable LCA frt camber plates or bolts...sloppy work.
Nothing you do to the rear can affect camber settings in the front, period.
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Old 09-22-2015, 06:37 PM   #11
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The statement is correct. When you change the rear settings it has an effect on the front.
Actually, this is entirely correct.

That being said, you generally don't notice this when you align a car that is more-or-less where it needs to be (i.e. a car that is doing a maintenance alignment and didn't jump a curb).

When a customer comes in with a bunch of new parts and the alignment is way off, you often need to go rear -> front -> rear -> front to get it dialed in, as the first front alignment change will be significant and *will* change the rear. Any more than one extra rear/front cycle and you're likely dealing with a newbie tech.

It sounds like this tech hasn't done many alignments aside from warranty/lease cars.

Lastly, when I say the rear affects the front, and vice versa, I am talking minimal amounts here. You should not see more than 0.1-0.2 deg camber change. You did ask for custom settings, however, and it's a lot more difficult to hit a specific value than it is a range specific in the FSM. Jouncing the suspension alone will cause a 0.1-0.2 deg camber shift... and you (or the tech) *should* jounce both ends before you consider the job complete.

Unless you have the exact fuel load you want and the tech lets you sit in the driver's seat while you're up on the alignment rack, it's gonna change a decent amount when you sit your butt in the seat. You should be willing to accept a fair window, and for the love of God make sure they're matching the L/R camber - that's the other hint I got that it's a fairly green tech.

Last edited by mrsaturn7085; 09-22-2015 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 09-22-2015, 07:08 PM   #12
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.1 or .2 is basically bushing deflection at rest. Every time you put the car back down the number will be randomly different by that margin.

The only thing that makes a difference front to rear is thrust angle.

You cannot change the front camber buy adjusting anything in the rear. It isn't physically possible.
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Old 09-23-2015, 12:22 AM   #13
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Yeah? How about ride height?

I'm telling you it happens on an alignment rack all the time.
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Old 09-23-2015, 12:40 AM   #14
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Yeah? How about ride height?

I'm telling you it happens on an alignment rack all the time.
There is no ride height adjustment.
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Old 09-23-2015, 08:44 AM   #15
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Would a 5mm spacer affect the alignment?
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Old 09-23-2015, 07:07 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Annihilator817 View Post
There is no ride height adjustment.
I'm speaking generally here.
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Old 09-23-2015, 07:09 PM   #17
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Would a 5mm spacer affect the alignment?
No345

But just be aware 3mm is probably the largest spacer you can safely run without installing extended wheel studs.

Last edited by Annihilator817; 09-23-2015 at 07:17 PM.
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Old 09-23-2015, 07:16 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
I'm speaking generally here.
Okay, I'll bite.

Adjusting the ride height on the rear may affect the front caster reading, as the car will physically change the angle it is sitting at, along the same plane that caster is measured, relative to the alignment rack.

But again, that is a false reading because caster, relative to the chassis, has not changed.

And still, as far as camber goes, there is no way to affect front camber by adjusting anything in the rear. It just isn't physically possible.
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Old 09-23-2015, 10:52 PM   #19
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...the car will physically change the angle it is sitting at...
Bingo. Same reason the weight of a driver or fuel load matters.

This is the part you're neglecting - weight-on-wheels. Any time you change the angle of the car when viewed from the side, you change the compression of the front and rear springs due to the static transfer of the effective mass fore or aft (albeit minor), thus changing alignment on both ends.

As a side note, this is also why you need to have the tires inflated to the proper pressure before an alignment.

An large initial alignment change in the rear (such as adjustment after swapping out all your suspension) will noticeably affect the front. I've corner-weighted and aligned enough cars to know this. Far more noticeable on heavier street or GT-style cars than open-wheel due to the overall mass of the vehicle.

Did this tech understand why this was happening when she aligned the car? Probably not - she was just telling the customer what was happening. But this is WHY she was seeing this. Had she given the rear and front another go-around, it wouldn't have been seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Annihilator817 View Post
...that is a false reading because caster, relative to the chassis, has not changed...
C'mon... really?

That statement implies things like camber curves don't matter. The reading is not false, the static conditions (which we align for) have changed.

If you'd like the last word here, go for it. Just like the bushing deflection comment earlier, you can't argue with physics, only attempt to trivialize them.
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Old 09-23-2015, 11:19 PM   #20
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You are so damn wrong, and so friggin far off topic, I'm at a loss.

If I adjust toe, caster, or camber through any method on the rear, NOTHING CHANGES ON THE FRONT.

Any changes you see are simply bushing deflection every time you drop the car back on the ground. I could push on the wheel with my hand and make the damn machine read a drastically different number.

The tech didnt change the ride height on his non ride height adjustable car. And nobody adjusts ride height while on an alignment rack.
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Old 09-23-2015, 11:37 PM   #21
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Any changes you see are simply bushing deflection every time you drop the car back on the ground.
Two points - about 75% or better of the alignments I've performed do not have a single rubber bushing on the vehicle. Bearings do not deflect.

Secondly, why are you taking readings with the car in the air? Readings should be taken on a level platform. If you raise one end and lower it, you should jounce the suspension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Annihilator817 View Post
I could push on the wheel with my hand and make the damn machine read a drastically different number.
Yep, that's why you don't do this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Annihilator817 View Post
The tech didnt change the ride height on his non ride height adjustable car. And nobody adjusts ride height while on an alignment rack.
Didn't say she did; I have on street cars when I don't intend to corner balance.

Here is a front-end model of a GD chassis. Adjusting the camber and taking compressed tire profile into account, the number "262" which is ride height to front suspension pickup, will change. You have effectively changed front-end ride height without changing the spring length.

Depending on whether weight transfers fore or aft, you will either compress or decompress the spring, thus making the change in the rear more significant, or more-or-less cancelling it out.

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Old 09-23-2015, 11:48 PM   #22
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There is no ride height adjustment.
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Old 09-27-2015, 02:17 PM   #23
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Unless you were to life you're car
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Old 09-27-2015, 02:18 PM   #24
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Life** which idk why you would with a Subaru lol
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Old 09-30-2015, 12:57 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munky88 View Post
I've installed whiteline com c top hats, Swift spec-r springs, and Cusco rear lcas.

I went to subaru to get a custom alignment of -2.0f -1.5r and 0 toe. Apparently the best they can do is -.98fl -1.68fr -1.29rl -1.74rr. -0.01 front toe and -0.02 rear toe.

My alignment was fine before changing these parts. The tech said that when ever she changed the rear alignment the front would change too?

Input would be greatly appreciated.
without camber plates, front and rear, you will not get your specs that you want. Plain and simple. Whenever you do an alignment, you must do the rear first before the front. Not doing so, will change your front specs.
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