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12-13-2010, 08:07 PM | #1551 | |
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Quote:
My take on the 45F switchover is that it depends greatly on the specific tire. Some summer tires will be fine at 40F, others wont. I would expect the "max" and "extreme" summers to be a lot more temperature sensitive than the lower performance tier summer tires. You have experienced cold weather traction deficiencies with your summers, but others have not. For example, from a BMW owner: "........we have had several mornings when the temps had dropped to 32-27 Degrees. No ice/snow, just cold. The summer tires were definitely hard(er) for the 1st 10-15 min. of driving, but after that they behaved like they always do, as if in normal temps. I didn't notice any dangerous behavior or anything like that - I drove cautiously for the 1st 10-15 min when the temps were that low...after that I drove them as usual, speeds 65-75 mph, and they performed like usual.........." I have driven my Michelin Pilot Exalto summers on dry asphalt at temps of 35F, and did not find them to be dangerous or vastly inadequate "under non-loaded conditions". If I had a set of Pilot PS2s, I might have been slipping and sliding under the same conditions. The situation with objective testing is just as contradictory. We have some tire manufacturers and government safety agencies stating that their testing shows a traction drop off at 45F for summer tires, and we have numerous magazines saying their testing shows no such drop off. The issue is further clouded because some manufacturers and tire dealers are using the 45F switchover as a marketing tool. BTW , Continental has been insisting that they do not want consumers to use Continental summer tires, or all-season tires, at temps below 45F. So if you own a set of Continental ExtremeContact DWS tires, it is apparently OK to use them in the snow, but only if it is above 45F. Here is what Joerg Burfien, the VP of R&D at Continental says about this: "............Our studies suggest that winter tires should be mounted at the first signs of cooling air below 45°F, not just at the first snowfall....................... But below 45°F, the harder tread compounds of these all-season tires become increasingly stiff and brittle, a condition that worsens as temperatures decline. The hardness of these tires at lower temperatures means they no longer conform to the surface of the road. This leads directly to reduced grip on the road and a much-reduced overall performance - mileage, braking distances, cornering, handling, etc. - ranging from 20% to 25%. In fact, stopping distances can double if you are not using a winter tire as temperatures decline. ..........Additionally, even in those areas that don't see dozens of inches of snow each year, winter tires outperform all-season treads in wet traction and braking.............. .........Slush-covered roads pose a dangerous situation for standard all-season tires, but the softer compounds and added gripping edges of winter patterns deliver greater driving reliability............. http://www.tirereview.com/Article/78...ter_tires.aspx
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Last edited by SubLGT; 12-13-2010 at 08:12 PM. |
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12-13-2010, 08:13 PM | #1552 |
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all this talk about tire size has me wondering about overall diameter. What happens when you order a brand new 16" winter setup and pop a tire??
you cant use you spare because the diameter would be different than the winter setup?? closest I could find to the stock size (225-45-17) in 16" is (225-55-16) I have a set of silver 6 spoke rs wheel that I would like to use as a winter setup but what tires would allow me to maintain a useful spare? Thanks sorry stock size for a 2010 wrx 225/50-16 = 24.9" diameter 205/55-16 = 24.9" diameter 225/45-17 = 25.0" diameter Last edited by Luke@tirerack; 12-14-2010 at 09:49 AM. |
12-13-2010, 09:36 PM | #1553 |
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WWLS= What would Luke say
told him my location and vehicle and had all the answers to what tire i should run this winter. great dealer easy purchase. thanks thanks .. nice talking with you yesterday Last edited by Luke@tirerack; 12-14-2010 at 09:50 AM. |
12-13-2010, 09:49 PM | #1554 | |
Vendor
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Location: chicago land
Vehicle:2003 forester white |
Quote:
I will agree the Quad 3 has it's limitations. |
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12-13-2010, 09:51 PM | #1555 | |
Vendor
Member#: 98066
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Location: chicago land
Vehicle:2003 forester white |
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Yes i do sell Nokian but well sell every major line of tire, my honest opinion. |
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12-13-2010, 10:05 PM | #1556 | |||
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Quote:
OK, no, in all seriousness: Again, I'll go back to what I said on LGT.com: that very little of the testing/reviews currently available truly helps the consumer in making the hardest choices of the winter-tire decision - specifically, which genre/sub-genre to buy. What we need is to see more quantitative data regarding temperatures and varied road-surfaces, as compared not between the same genre/sub-genre of tire, but across the different strata, so that consumers can get a better understanding of the simple "category" of tire they should buy. Currently, we have to make a two-step or even three-step jump to cross-correlate/validate data: and that's not only just too much, for some to reason through, but it also adds to the potential for hidden confounding factors to make a bigger play: at best by skewing the data, and at-worst maybe making the recommendations that any one of us may give, actually not valid. ---- Quote:
With "Performance Winters," I can do a bit of slow-speed heroics: pretend that I'm in a snow-stage on the WRC, but with only 10 MPH on the speedo - and still know that if I needed to, I can recover much, much more easily than I would be able to, if I were on a set of all-seasons. With "Studless Ice & Snows?" I'm not trained in wintersports driving, so the speeds at which I end up, I end up also scaring the crap out of myself.... It's actually much less "fun," if you will. With my studded Pirellis, yes, it's awesome fun to see EVERYONE (including salt-loaded municipal plow trucks) just fade off into nil, in my RVM - but it's damned hard to break loose. I think that if I tried to have fun, I'd actually get myself into trouble, over my head. Just something to ponder. As for the Blizzaks, the WS70 is definitely what it's claimed to be. My only reservation about this tire would be if you put a lot of miles on your vehicle. Bridgestone still can't make their super-sticky proprietary winter compound a through-and-through of the tread, so once you've worn through that top layer (~50% of tread depth), not only are you left now without that magical layer, you also get the double-bogey of having lesser tread-depth, too. I believe that Luke recommends both the Xi2 and the ContiEWC as similar wear? You'll want to ask him, just to be sure. Since you seem to like the Blizzak line, you may be able to hedge your bets a bit, and go with the LM60. It's an LM-line tire, so it's a "Performance Winter," without the dual-layer constituency, but it also has the general tread-pattern of the WS60, which means that it should move fresh-powder snow a bit better than the more conventionally "Performance Winter" LMs. ---- Quote:
Now, the question here becomes what are you giving up, in-trade. Typically, traction is a function of your footprint, and a smaller footprint is usually not advantageous in the clear - wet or dry. So, in getting yourself a set of "Performance Winters," where one would imagine that an obvious pursuit would be to retain some form/factor of the "fun" part of the equation that you have with your "summer" set, you've got to ask yourself if going so much narrower may actually be counter to your final aims, if it is indeed to keep some of that clear-roads "fun factor" intact. That, of course, is up to you to decide, based on what your final aims are. |
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12-13-2010, 10:20 PM | #1557 | |
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12-13-2010, 10:26 PM | #1558 | |||
Scooby Specialist
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Join Date: Jul 2005
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Quote:
Quote:
2010 and 2009 ADAC - perhaps the most highly regarded of the European "Performance Winter"/"Continental" tire tests - of the H-rated tires, it's second tier. Far from "dominating." 2010 Auto Bilde, the WRG2 was dead last of the 5 tires tested 2010 AMS slots the Pirelli SottoZero Serie II, Vredestein Quatrac3, and Nokian tires into virtually the same tier. Again, not a dominating finish, by any means. The 2010 Auto Express results closely correlates with those seen in the 2010 AMS, with the WRG2 a bottom-tier finisher. 2010 Auto Zeitung - a top-third finish, but far from dominating, with three other tires deemed "better overall." Dominating the European tests? Hardly. Oh, and before you flame again, you should search up how many times SubLGT - as well as myself - have recommended Nokian tires, including the WR and WRG2, not only in this community, but also others. Oh, and as for this year's Consumer Reports testing? You do know that they rank "snow traction" only in terms of acceleration, right? no turns, no braking? The truth of the matter is that this year in particular, to say that the CR data has been controversial is an understatement, particularly as it seems that virtually none of the respected European sources' data really jibes with it. That's a rather big can-of-worms to open (possible market-related differences in tire composition? the difference between V and H rated? as-tested? why does CR so steadfastly refuse to open their books, to let enthusiasts/hobbyists see the raw quantified data?). Last edited by LGT+WRX; 12-13-2010 at 10:55 PM. |
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12-13-2010, 10:42 PM | #1559 | |
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Quote:
It's really not that big of a deal, if you're a local-level commuter who doesn't cover many miles and can keep a careful watch on the forecast (or can beg a ride home from a co-worker or another car-club member [the razzing would probably never stop, though, in that case!]) - but if you commute decent distances, it's not completely unlikely that you may run into unexpected trouble, particularly if you don't keep a careful watch on the 11-o'clock news. As for the width? The 205s shouldn't pose a problem - I mainly speak from a "I love to kill my 'Performance Winter's' treads when it's warmer out" kind of perspective - as long as you remember that you're not going to want to attack on/off-ramps with the same kind of verve as you usually do in the fairer months (who would, anyway, with the specter of an unexpected patch of icy stuff always looming in the picture, in the winter), I don't think you'll necessarily be putting yourself in any danger. For an extra $150, spread over the next two, three, or even 4 years, though..... I dunno, spending that on the extra width certainly would make me grin when it's warmer out, but then again, that's your decision to make, not mine - particularly as when it gets really nasty out, I can throw on my "deep winter" set, whereas in your situation, these tires *ARE* going to be your "nastiest winter possible" shoes. We've all got our own priorities, and they're rarely the same as the other persons'. No right no wrong - just pick what's best suited to your needs. So, no thanks needed. It's not my role to tell you what's right or wrong: simply to help guide you to reach the best decision you can make, for yourself, given your specific needs and wants. |
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12-14-2010, 12:23 AM | #1560 |
Scooby Specialist
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Vehicle:2005 Legacy GT |
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12-14-2010, 09:55 AM | #1561 | |
Scooby Specialist
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Chapter/Region:
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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Vehicle:05 WRX, 17 M2 01 S2K, 16 Fozzy Turbo |
Kuhmo MX, Dunlop Star Specs, Bridgestone S02
Quote:
On the public exposure of the internet and forums, it is always best to post advise that would best benefit the reader of largest scope. Playing it safe and always recommending correct temperature rubber gives me just that bit more faith that a fellow member may be safer because of it, instead of taking a risk on all seasons or summers. |
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12-14-2010, 11:28 AM | #1562 |
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^ Actually, street tires on cold days, even below zero, will "warm up," even if it's just a braking scenario, and it may actually warm up enough to give the summer/all-season tire the advantage - and that's per Dirk McDonald, an actual tire engineer, at Michelin, whom I spoke with first-hand. This was a question that I was specifically asked to carry with me, and have answered, at my meeting with the Michelin personnel.
The interaction of the exact tire design with roadway temperature is much more complicated than what you're making it out to be, AaronCompNetSys. The problem with assuming immediately that "winter tires" are safer is that the actual physical data does not hold - braking distances, alone, testifies to that fact. When the weather is warmer or when on clear (wet or dry) surfaces, despite temperatures that are colder, the data shows that *some* summer tires and some all-seasons stop shorter: and if "safety" is to be invoked, than a simple correlation can be made to a straight-line panic stop, if nothing else. That is actually "playing it safe," and recommending a "correct temperature rubber." Outright recommending a winter tire - let alone a specific winter tire - is to generalize too much. Of the three tires you've tested above (again, any quantitative data?), all are in the more extreme categories of compounding, which is something that many of us suspect, per SubLGT's posting is wondering about: exactly where along the different tire categories and sub-categories can we start to draw that line, to insure our own safety. |
12-14-2010, 11:48 AM | #1563 |
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Steel rims vs moda on tire rack?
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12-14-2010, 01:57 PM | #1564 | |
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I don't understand why you continue to talk about dry and non-precipitate performance. In the real world here in Cincinnati, you cannot depend on it to be dry when making your tire purchasing decision. Discussing anything without including rain storms, slush pits, road salt, and general road grit is a waste of time. Unless you are fortunate enough to have a garaged car that doesn't see the light of day on bad days...
So if we are talking about dry (or race track) only cars, I'm with you there buddy. I can even back you up on dry cold claims on perfect days, I do it all the time. I also don't recommend it to others because while fun its not as safe as it could be. Quote:
I don't care who tells you what, I've gotten out of my car during driving to lay a hand on my tires. During hard driving, to the grocery, etc, and I look a fool to be getting out and touching the rubber for seemingly no reason. Your wishful thinking about warming is from a race track. Tires cool really fast, and they stay cool for the majority of your civilian journey. |
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12-14-2010, 05:31 PM | #1565 | |||
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Quote:
The thing is that there are those people who can benefit significantly from what the Russians have recommended: for the absolute data is there. The fact that winter tires do show significant performance compromises in both wet and dry-clear situations at temperatures well under 45-degrees, when compared to either "summer" tires or various "all-seasons" tires concerns me a lot, specifically in seeking that extra margin of safety for my family. Modern winter tires excel in wintry conditions - specifically, with frozen precipitation on the ground. That's a foregone conclusion. But in the hypothetical situation you paint, a winter tire is always expected to see wintry frozen precipitation, and that, in the real-world, in both milder areas as well as during the transitional season, even here in the "Snow-Belt" proper, is not nearly always true, particularly in the transition months when a winter tire may well still be on the vehicle, due to, as you said yourself, the possibility that you'd still see frozen precipitation (although uncommon, it is also not exactly rare that we see significant snow here in Cleveland, in late April or even early May, when, otherwise, temperatures could well be in the 60s). And in situations where such tires are cross-compared with their "summer" or "all-season" cousins in clear conditions, even at very cold temperatures but specifically without wintry frozen precipitation on the ground, it is now contested as to which tires truly offer the biggest margin for safety, and the data, surprisingly, does not necessarily look to favor the winter tires, as the long-held "45-degrees and switch" mantra maintained. I keep coming back to the clear-dry and clear-wet part of the debate because that's not a foregone conclusion. Because the current data shows that this is an area where, if we truly are concerned about safety, we should take note. It's where the debate needs to focus, and more data needs to be accumulated, via controlled and target-specific testing. Quote:
My personal belief is that since there is no perfect tire - since there are always compromises - one must address the specific situation. In those cases where the end-user is able to delay change-over while keeping an eye on the weather or if they have the luxury of being able to raise the garage door that morning and go, "huh, I should take 30 minutes and put on my winter tires, since there's some slush-looking stuff on the ground," the delay in change-over can be of help in those unlikely instances where, just the day before, they were to encounter an emergency-maneuver situation on a tire that still delivered better performance at that very instant. But of-course, like you said, some people aren't able to hedge their bets that way - I'm one of those. While I'd like to, based on the quantitative data, push until the very last minute, I don't have the luxury of taking that 30 minutes to switch-out, at the very last second. I can play it by the week, but unless I'm very lucky to have some slack-time, I can't play things quite by the day. So, I prepare for the worst possible weather, but in the mean-time, I give up some ultimate grip in clear-wet and clear-dry. Safety is not an absolute: it's relative - a tire that's optimized for one condition is simply not for another, there are always strengths and weaknesses. It's a sliding scale which we each must play to, and hope that we don't, out of pure circumstance, land on the wrong side of the equation. "Performance" is about more than fun, for one can always extrapolate the increased safety margins that comes from having higher/better performance. These are very real and very possible scenarios, and I think that instead of trying to tailor to the lowest common denominator, we should work to best educate our fellow hobbyists and enthusiasts, so that they know what the hard facts are, and can make an educated decision, by themselves, for while we have our own preferences and requirements, those may not be the same for another person. Quote:
Dirk McDonald is a true tire engineer for Michelin. While his specialty is the UHP side of things, he has been involved with their company's winter tires, and his assessment was based on an intimate understanding of both. Last edited by LGT+WRX; 12-14-2010 at 08:56 PM. |
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12-14-2010, 07:16 PM | #1566 |
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Two things:
year: 2006 make: Saab model: 92x Aero w/ oem 16" wheels location: Northern Virginia tires only or winter package: Tires only looking for a performance winter tire and a question: Today I had to panic stop in some traffic from only about 35mph. It was 24 degrees outside and I barely stopped without causing a wreck. I was very surprised about the poor level of breaking, going straight into anti-lock from a pretty low speed. However I'm running Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec summer tires. I'm guessing there is a pretty huge performance drop-off with temps this low, right? Thanks! |
12-14-2010, 07:54 PM | #1567 | |
Scooby Specialist
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^ That looks to be the case - that's one of the tires that AaronCompNetSys based his observations on, and which, as SubLGT, myself, and others wondered about on LegacyGT.com, is definitely on the more aggressively "summerized" (for lack of better wording) side of the equation, so that certainly could be the case.
Quote:
^ Not doubting you - just trying to get data. Why that question? Well, it's because this past fall, I had a similar experience as you. The experience, of course, led me to swap over to my "Performance Winters," immediately, for my first thought was conventional: that I'd pushed the temperature part of the equation too far (I could be sure, though, that my roadways had no ice - since the temperatures involved, at my incident, was well above freezing). But then things started to warm up again (as they often do, here in NE-Ohio)...but I kept on, albeit making extra allowances for my tire choice, during those warmer weeks. Those who know me from other communities - including LegacyGT.com - can trace back my posts of that time, and know that incident was among the reasons for my switch-over, as well as that it spawned an interest for me, with this very concern of temperatures. Now, knowing what I know of the newer data, the other thing that plays in my mind is, of course, whether that panic stop would have been different: whether if I would've ended up on the bumper of the car in front of me, had I actually had my "Performance Winters" on, particularly given the higher temperature at which my incident took place...to say nothing of the days following, when temperatures were higher. So that's where I was taking that question - that I would just like more data, that's all. The problem with thinking about all of this too much, for too long, is that the obsession drives the "what ifs" more and more, harder and harder. As some who are also over on LGT.com knows, my current inner-debate is whether or not I should, next time, go with an all-season tire as my intermediary between my "summer" and my true "deep winter" setup, or if I should stay with a "Performance Winter," or even an "All Weather." Yeah, I know, I think about this way, way too much. Last edited by LGT+WRX; 12-14-2010 at 08:52 PM. |
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12-15-2010, 07:08 AM | #1568 | |
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Vehicle:2006 WRX Limited WRPB, Cobb Stage II, VF39 |
Quote:
I would go with a performance winter tire then ... look at the Winter Sport 3D Last edited by Luke@tirerack; 12-15-2010 at 10:22 AM. |
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12-15-2010, 08:33 AM | #1569 | |
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12-15-2010, 11:40 AM | #1570 | ||
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Quote:
You guys are both missing an important part of the discussion. Well, missing might not be the correct term but, the rubber compound used for different summer tires will react differently to colder temps. here's what Yokohama says Quote:
I have seen both race and summer performance tires damaged by cold temperatures from several different manufacturers. |
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12-15-2010, 12:14 PM | #1571 |
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Oh I think LGT+WRX did notice it.
There are very likely summer tires that handle cold better than others. I and others suspect that the more extreme summer tires (like Kumho XS - dry only, Advan Neova and others) is the less likely it is to handle cold well up to the point when manufacturer puts a notice out that tire not only should not be used near or below freezing but stored at temperature no lower than x (-10 C/14F for Neova). Krzys |
12-15-2010, 01:16 PM | #1572 | |
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I have room to store tyres in my unheated detached garage, but not in the house. I can lug them down into the cellar, but that is a lot of work if not needed (Stairs and only room to stoop). It is vary rare that it gets down into the teens here and I can't remember a 14F temp at my house. Interestingly enough last week I got a promo e-mail from Tirerack for the RE070 and some wiper blades. The 070 doesn't seem to mind cold too much, but are down right dangerous on the white stuff, or worse on the black ice. I've been caught out twice in the last 7 years. New wiper blades should be here shortly. |
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12-15-2010, 01:38 PM | #1573 |
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Vehicle:2015 WRX DGM |
year: 2011
make: subaru model: Forester location: Pittsburgh/erie pa tires only or winter package: tires only, simple question about stock ones I am curious if the stock P225/55HR17 Yokohama Geolandar G95 M+S tires are actually snow-worthy? No extreme driving or anything, just want to be sure that these are safe enough for the wife Mini review: They kill the BFG Super Sport A/S that are on my 330xi, traction under accel is better (understandable with Subaru>>>>>>>>>>BMW AWD) but under braking its definitely better than the BFGs. Just wondering how they compare to other tires in their class and also vs. a set of decent winters. it doesn't take much to kill the BFG Super Sport A/S when it comes to snow performance Last edited by Luke@tirerack; 12-15-2010 at 03:54 PM. |
12-15-2010, 03:29 PM | #1574 |
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If your Forester is 4EAT I am not sure that its AWD ">>>>>>>>>>BMW AWD".
Your stock tires seem to be all seasons so they can be used all year long including winter but... How much snow do you get? Does your wife needs to be on the road when crews are still cleaning? Krzys |
12-15-2010, 04:10 PM | #1575 | ||
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Quote:
In terms of snow? Sometimes...LOTS. She doesnt start her commute til a little after 8am, as she starts work at 9. The times I am concerned are our weekend trips to Erie, which after about half distance (~60 miles) it becomes really, really snowy compared to it what we have in Pittsburgh. Quote:
Last edited by d3v0; 12-15-2010 at 04:27 PM. |
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