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Old 01-10-2005, 02:46 AM   #126
reddevil
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OK. The stepper pulley is a confirmed nightmare and I think the sixty or so hours I have spent with it trying to get it to work are all completely out the window. Plain and simple the pulley failed again. My fault again, but not as much as the first time. The aluminum pulley inner ring pulled in toward the bolts attaching it to the section of stock power steering pump that I had cut out and mounted. OK, you are all going, "what the hell is he talking about?", but it doesn't matter, the damn thing failed. I sheared one bolt and other crap broke, and I was lucky it happened while I was going 20 miles an hour while next to a parking lot.

So..... I reinstalled the original setup and I love it once again. And I realized a very important fact. Spend the freaking $250-$300 and just have a larger crank pulley made and instant boost increase. I hate to think how much I lost my doing all the work myself instead of making money (ok, about $1000 in lost labor I could have made working for someone else). So I seriously screw up time and money wise. I did learn a lot about making pulleys though!

What it comes down to is keeping just one belt running the whole shebang, the proper pulley ratio, and belt coverage of the pulleys. Right now I have poor belt coverage of the pulleys and still manage a constant ( now that I repositioned an idler) 8 psi. Had I had this and no boost leak the first time, I would never had attempted the damn stepper pulley. If I move the current idler pulley, I will get MUCH better belt coverage and a possible psi increase just from that. And if I spend the extra money to just have the crank pulley size increase, I will see the 10 psi finally with no horror stories.

Aren't you glad this isn't you?

Good news in the end though, is that now that I have reinstalled everything AGAIN, my boost is even higher for some reason (probably belt tension) and I am getting a solid 8 psi, and this is very satisfactory. Not 100% satisfactory, but close.

Night all.
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Old 01-10-2005, 03:46 AM   #127
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Red, just remember, the more belt wrap you have, the better, my belt wraps almos 3/4 away around my sc pulley.

Josh, look up the rimmer sc kit. its what i have and its mounted completely different from Red's. - IC
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Old 01-10-2005, 06:48 AM   #128
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glad to hear its back up and running...
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Old 01-10-2005, 01:22 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddevil
Good news in the end though, is that now that I have reinstalled everything AGAIN, my boost is even higher for some reason (probably belt tension) and I am getting a solid 8 psi, and this is very satisfactory. Not 100% satisfactory, but close.

Night all.
Good news Red! Now keep selling that furniture like hot cakes and develop a kit and start selling them here like hot cakes.
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Old 01-10-2005, 03:50 PM   #130
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I was sure Mad Max had his blower mounted on the same side, with ABS unit visible. This is the ideal spot, except for the abs, because I have access to the cool air in the fender wall for intake and will have space to connect to an intercooler before the throttle body. Does anyone have more details on his setup who could maybe PM me???
Thanks
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Old 01-11-2005, 01:02 AM   #131
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Some more musings.

All psi numbers are based on the numbers I am getting through a 90-94 AWIC into a 2.2 engine.

The m62, if it runs at 2 to 1 pulley ratio, on a 2.2 liter engine, utilizing an intercooler of some sort, starts pushing 6 psi at 2000 rpm, and rises to 9 psi at 6000 rpm. The supercharger is actually designed to run at almost 2.5 to 1 (about 14-15000 rpm to a 6000 engine rpm) which would give a boost increase of about 2-3 psi (so 8-9 psi at 2000 rpm and end with 11-12 psi at 6000 rpm. To accomplish the 2-1 ratio without a stepper pulley the engine requires a 7.25" crank pulley. To accomplish the 2.5-1 ratio without a stepper pulley, the crank pulley must be 9" in diameter. This may sound outragous, but a well turned and balanced aluminium crank pulley causes no problems. Its just exspensive.

Now if you were to do the same thing on a 2.5 liter engine, the boost levels will decrease because the engine is swallowing more air per revolution so expect a decrease of about 1 psi on average. This is probably a good thing considering how the RS 2.5 engines dont like excessive boost. On the otherhand, to a much bigger **** eating grin would be sticking this blower on a WRX 2.0 liter motor, you could expect up to a 1.5 psi increase overall. This could give you a 10-14 psi range, with no turbo lag.

The next step though would be to upgrade the m62 to the m90, which flows 1.5 times as much air per revolution! This would be a HUGE psi boost Since I dont understand the mathimatical formulas for figuring boost I can't give accurate numbers, but I am willing to bet it is a close to 50% increase in boost, so minimum 9 psi to start with at 2000 rpm, to 18 psi at 6000 rpm on a 2.2 liter motor! Huge! This could be as much as 21 psi on a 2.0 WRX block. WoW!

The first pitfall to fitting in a m90 is mechanical. Could you fit the m62 mercedes clutch system to a m90? Don't know but because of space requirements, it is most probably needed. The second pitfall is pulley style. Currenty we use a serpintine 5-6 rib belt. In the right pulley set up and the right belt manufacturer (I prefer Dayco PolyCog), this belt style will hold up to supposedly 12ish psi. If you want to go higher you need a cogged belt which would require some very exspensive custom pulleys.

When you get to the higher numbers, you will start running into a few problems if you are using the electric clutch. The biggest for belt life, drivetrain life and internal life is pure shock load. 0 to 12 psi is a hell of a boost shock. As it is, turning on the boost at 5000 rpm (which gives me about 7-8 psi) the torque hit is hard, meaning you wonder how long stuff is going to last. If you can always start boosting at 2-3k, then stuff will last alot longer. However it really isnt all that fun... On at least a few Mercedes supercharger systems, this shock load is prevented by keeping the supercharger from engaging if the rpms are higher than somewhere in the 3000-4000 range. Now if you somehow mount the Eaton supercharger without the electric clutch, so it is running all the time and you are utilizing the bypass valve, then you would be able to evade this type of engagement shock.

So there are my musings.
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Old 01-11-2005, 01:40 AM   #132
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Belt wrap and new idler pulley results.

Ok, the original set up was four pullies and one belt. The stock alternator pulley, the stock crank pulley, , the powersteering pulley and the supercharger pulley. I installed one idler pulley. This was without a AWIC and gave me about 3-4 psi. The power steering still worked ok.

The next set involved the custom 7.25" crank pulley, a larger (for matching ratio) alternator pulley, the powersteering pulley and the supercharger pulley. I had the old idler pulley and an extra idler pulley to stretch the belt out since when you get this long a run, belt lengths are limited. Without the AWIC I pushed 12 psi. I detonated horribly and blew a piston. I also did not have any fuel management or upgrade fuel flow. I do not know what was the main cause of the detonation but you do the math. The powersteering pulley barely works.

The setup I have been running since installing the AWIC was the same pulleys but now no powersteering. I was running between 5 and 9 psi, depending upon a few variables I could never determine.

But now.....And maybe for a while..... I finally gave up and accepted that the stepper pulley for boosting psi by boosting the rpm pulley ratio is a damn hard idea to implement. So now my latest effort went into installing another true idler pulley which really makes the belt serpentine and better wrap the two pullies that count, the crank and supercharger pullies.

And it gave me positive results, the first in a while. While my psi didnt climb (which I kinda hoped for), it now really remains steady AND climbs in relationship to the rising rpms. This gives me a very potent and increasing power range as I drive. Boost starts at 6 psi and tops out at about 9ish while at 6000 rpm which is where I shift. I am currently running a 2-1 pulley ratio. If I, and I probably will down the road, spend another $325, I will have another custom crank pulley made so I can up the pulley ratio to 2.5 to 1. This would give up to another 2 psi.

At this point I am going to stay the way I am. The car is plenty fast and is running well. I suspect I will Dyno run the wagon some time withen the next 30 days.

Now off to evade capture from the police!
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Old 01-11-2005, 02:10 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddevil
Now if you somehow mount the Eaton supercharger without the electric clutch, so it is running all the time and you are utilizing the bypass valve, then you would be able to evade this type of engagement shock.

So there are my musings.
THUS, THE KIT I HAVE - IC

p.s. Red you are totally awsome for doing this, wish i could drive out to swap ideas and compare our 2 cars, but detroit to portland is a long haul, tho i do need to put miles on the new motor to break it in
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Old 02-26-2005, 04:07 AM   #134
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A little update on the setup.

I reworked the belt system and once the belt was fully engageging all the time, there was no psi fluctuation or belt slippage.
I installed 370 Nismo injectors bought off Ebay for a steal. Ran rich as a pig. Had to install a 50k poteniometer to intercept the MAF signal and turn the signal down a tad. A CHEAP AFC.

Results? Pretty Damn Good.

Probably about 200-220 chp but massive torque. Going uphill from 70mph to about 100, I have caught EVOs. I will say I can't prove they werent dogging it but it sure didnt seem like it!

Off the line the clutch aint happy and so its a moot point argueing launch, I just cant.

I have G-Teched the setup and am getting 150-160 whp from the g-tech.

The latest and greatest install is the free MSD DIS-4 my brother gave me. I installed it........Difference?.........Can't tell.......***?.......The signals and power are obviously going throug it but around town nothing amazing. We shall see if I make it to PIR for the track day.
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Old 03-28-2005, 06:56 PM   #135
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Another update.

I finally took it to the dyno.


Turns out I did the dyno run on basically 3 plugs with the 4th having the plug wiring just resting on top of the plug. I also had a horribly clogged fuel sock in the tank that when replaced, allowed the fuel pressure to jump 10 psi. So basically I would safely add almost 10 hp and torque to the dyno numbers.

I am getting about 20 mpg (unless I am tracking it, then about 12). Since I solved the misfiring issue, the wagon has been running pretty well and I am damn proud of it. Of course now I need to figure out how to get more boost out of it!
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Old 03-28-2005, 09:34 PM   #136
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Cool! Good job! It always feels good to do it yourself and have it work .
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Old 04-10-2005, 04:22 AM   #137
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Went out to PIR tonight and had a pretty good time. Other than the redicuously poor clutch action, the wagon ran close to perfect!

When the clutch would hook up, then i was able to get 15.2 - 15.4 times consistantly at about 88-89.95 mph. 7psi. And this was at incredibly low rpm launches. Like 3000 rpm.

I managed twice to get 2.05 second 0-60 times with the low rpm launches so I KNOW I can get high 14's if I were to replace the clutch. But that has to wait until I port my extra heads and get everything else ready to go.

Next time I will be shooting a little nitrous so even with the poor launches, i should be able to get 14.5 or less (cross you fingers!)


Stock (NA, no supercharger or nitrouts) my best time was 16.6 @ 79 and I only was able to get this once.
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Old 04-10-2005, 06:00 AM   #138
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Nice meeting you tonight man.

Was fun to see teh supercharged wagon run especially when you were ahead of me for awhile on my first run when I bogged out

Hopefully we'll both improve our times

-Tim
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Old 05-08-2005, 03:22 AM   #139
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An update.


Repeat after me.

Always include engine management when pushing over 6 psi.
Always include engine management when pushing over 6 psi.
Always include engine management when pushing over 6 psi.
Always include engine management when pushing over 6 psi.
Always include engine management when pushing over 6 psi.


I broke a ringland or two I suspect, on two separate occasions. First was last week when attempting the blower AND a 60 shot of nitrous (did get a 14.7 et, if I had a clutch it would have been a 14.2). Then tonight I took it out again to the dragstrip and on the last run I heard metal bits seemingly moving through the exahaust with lots of tailpipe smoke. But.....wagon still runs pretty swell with only about a 10-15% lost of power overall. However I am suffering a large amount of blowby due to the damaged piston. While on the freeway, cruising in fifth has weird hesitation/missing most likely due to the wacko ringland damage, but as soon as it gets a little load going, then the missing disappears

I still have to compete in next weeks rallycross, so cross your fingers.


So now comes the question of the rebuild.

First fact is I need some kind of ignition timing control, whatever shape or brand it takes. This could be anything from a DIS-2, to a Perfect Power.

Next is the question of pistons. Turbo pistons are the same price as stock NA pistons. But what are the pros and cons of turbo versus stock NA?

Compression baby.

I suspect if I were to go to turbo pistons and stay at the same boost I currently am running, I will actually lose power. Right now on the NA compression I am hitting almost 160 whp. Turbo legacies running the same boost are maybe making 180 crank power versus my 210 chp. So if I switch to turbo pistons, I lose ALOT of power. But I can up the boost though now because of the lower compression, but I am limited to maybe pushing 12 psi if I were to spend another $350 on another custom crank pulley which would net me about 180ish whp.

Now thats all fine and dandy, but it involves running higher boost with the extra cost of the new crank pulley. However, this lower compression may NOT need the timing management.

Or I can just rebuild like I did the first time, with regular NA pistons and run 9.5-1 compression. BUT with engine management so I can knock down that pesky detonation due to advanced timing. Running higher octane than pump gas is not out of the question, I already do it. Currently I am pushing 8 psi, and with some modification to the intake, I probably can get it up to 9 psi at 3500 rpm, rising to about 11 at 6000 rpm. And this is without messing with the current crank pulley. If the engine management works at keeping the detonation at bay, then I should be getting close to 190 whp with AMAZING torque.

Thats the internal question to the engine rebuild.

Next is the question of WHICH engine to rebuild.

I have the "broken" engine in the wagon currently. It runs and drives fine and dandy minus the few hiccups it is having. If I rebuild that motor, then I will be down about a week if I choose to have the current heads rebuilt. If I have a set of new heads ready, then I have to rebuild during the pull and this would add about 2-3 hours to yank the heads and pull and replace the pistons. Unless the piston sleeve(s) is damaged, then I am confident in the bottom end of this block.

The other option is rebuilding a donor block I have sitting. Now theoretically this NA block should give me the same performance as my current block. It was running fine when I pulled it out of a donor wagon. But I think giving myself the extra three hours of involved install work on a proven block is the better way to go.


So really the only question is this; Turbo versus NA pistons combined with a static 11ish psi of boost. Which is going to give more power when combined with decent octane fuel AND ignition management (and possible fuel managment).
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Old 05-08-2005, 04:26 AM   #140
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i recommend just doing everything at once, build up the block with new pistons, or if you want to keep it somewhat cheaper, throw in a EJ22G block, or internals. Install new injectors/pump then run a Link plus or emanage, or something similar that can control fuel and timing.

if you keep bandaiding things, they are gonna keep breaking, it is just my philosophy to do it right the first time and it will save you a lot of problems/money later. it may seem expensive initially, but in the long run it wont be. Plus you will be able to push it harder.

just my opinions

good luck

Ben
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Old 05-08-2005, 12:15 PM   #141
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Basically I already did all that, except for the EM. No engine management was the flaw.
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Old 05-09-2005, 01:49 AM   #142
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Bizarre,

drove the wagon around today. Obviously broken rings but if I drive with no boost, I get no cels. Purrs like a kitten. OK, an old sick, tuberculocous kitten, but a kitten none the less.
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Old 05-09-2005, 01:52 AM   #143
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u wanna buy my link red ?
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Old 05-09-2005, 02:03 AM   #144
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Do you have a link to your link? As in the homepage of the maker with all the info? And how much? Might be awhile though, got to pay some bills off. Thanks
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Old 05-09-2005, 05:40 PM   #145
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Old 05-10-2005, 12:13 PM   #146
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Red yyou could always run a J&S Safegaurd for the ignition. as long as you have a way to keep your fuel tuned, thats all you need. i woul;d go with turbo pistons for sure. i mean yeah you'll lose some power driving around town , but you can always make that back up at the track with a bigger shot of nitrous. - IC
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Old 05-10-2005, 12:14 PM   #147
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btw, i no longer have my SC, so a new one is in the works, i'll post pics tonight- IC
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Old 05-10-2005, 10:23 PM   #148
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how much horse you getting out that thing and were did u get it
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Old 05-11-2005, 02:31 PM   #149
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Adds about 50-70 whp at 7-9 psi = 155-175 whp.

Ebay.
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Old 05-16-2005, 01:42 AM   #150
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Well, a little update.

Motor is shot. Still runs and boosts, but is shot.

I have seriously busted ringlands and/or melted pistons.

But as a testament to the old 2.2s, it still gets 20 mpg, cruises at 80 mph and when I get on it, it gets up and goes.

And now that I am blowing so much oil into the supercharger through the crankcase breather hoses, I am pushing 9 psi! due to the fact the oil helps seal the lobes!

So I busticated the motor about 3 weeks or so ago at the drag strip. But since it still ran, I took it out again for fun. And since the rallycross was this weekend, I took it out for that. The rallycross is actually less stress than the dragstrip because I never hit third in rallycross. But I still managed to really get my ECU angry to the point of not idleing after the second run. So I pulled out and just hoped the motor would start again when i had to leave.

Amazingly enough, the wagon runs and drives pretty damned good. It has trouble idleing 50% of the time, smokes like the devil but sounds good, has plenty of power on boost, and to top it off, has no CELS! (unless you turn it off and drive withen 5 minutes.
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