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Old 01-14-2002, 02:30 PM   #1
WRX_Nut_CO
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Default Studded Snow Tires? Opinions Please.

Yes, I did a search, read through posts for 3 hours, and didn't answer my questions.

I am specifically interested in opinions from anyone who has run studded snow tires on their Impreza.

I am in a unique situation in that you pretty much need studded snow tires where I live, but I drive 50 miles one way to work every day. About 95% of the driving will be dry roads. So I guess I'm wondering if anybody else has studs on and drives mostly dry road.

What kind of tires? How do they handle on the dry pavement? Are they excessively loud?

Right now I'm leaning towards studded Nokian Hakka 1's.

Any opinions?
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Old 01-14-2002, 03:07 PM   #2
Midnightman
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Default Are you serious?

Are you trying to tell me that all-wheel drive and snow tires are not enough? Dude, I lived in Colorado for 20 years before I moved to Virginia, and I snowboarded a lot at Breckenridge and drove a 95' Contour with regular tires with no problems.

Why do you want a snow tank anyway?

E
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Old 01-14-2002, 03:22 PM   #3
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Hahahaha. Problem is that you're never really driving in the snow up here. You drive on a lot of hardpacked snow and ice. Maybe I'm just being paranoid and don't really need studs.
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Old 01-14-2002, 03:31 PM   #4
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Why do you "need" studs?

The main reasons to use studded tires is: you have to drive somewhere that is not plowed often and therefore you get very deep snow requiring a very open tire tread (e.g. Hakka 1).

If you live somewhere where you don't encounter deep, unplowed snow then Hakka Q or Blizzak MZ/LMs are a MUCH better alternative for snowy, muddy and icy roads. Less noise, less road damage and better ice grip than studs.

The Blizzak WS is a half way alternative, but is not as good in deep snow as a Hakka 1, and not as good on ice as an ice tire like Blizzak LM/MZ or Hakka Q.

Glenn
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Old 01-14-2002, 03:39 PM   #5
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Was thinking studs mainly for the ice. Most of the driving around home where I live is hardpack/ice.

Of course there are lots of good tires for this application, but I was looking for something with the least amount of tradeoff since 95% of the driving on these tires will be on dry highways.

Brian
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Old 01-14-2002, 04:37 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Wallace
If you live somewhere where you don't encounter deep, unplowed snow then Hakka Q or Blizzak MZ/LMs are a MUCH better alternative for snowy, muddy and icy roads. Less noise, less road damage and better ice grip than studs.
I don't agree with the "better ice grip than studs" part. I used to have metal studded snow tires and the ice grip was absolutely unreal. I could drive as if the road wasn't ice covered at all. I don't believe that any tire alone can match metal stud performance on ice. But if 95% of your driving is going to be dry roads I wouldn't get them. They are noisy and have bad traction on wet or dry pavement. On dry pavement you can actually see them throwing sparks at night. They are also illegal in most places, maybe not where you live though. I think Glenn's recommendations were good ones.
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Old 01-14-2002, 04:51 PM   #7
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That is exactly my dilemma. I really need good traction on hardpack snow and ice (as I will drive on it every day), but will spend most of my daily commute on dry roads.

Brian
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Old 01-14-2002, 05:36 PM   #8
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Then go with a set of skinny Nokian Hakkapeliitta Qs as Glenn suggested. They are reputably one of the best friction ice tires available.

-Jeff

Quote:
Originally posted by WRX_Nut_CO
That is exactly my dilemma. I really need good traction on hardpack snow and ice (as I will drive on it every day), but will spend most of my daily commute on dry roads.

Brian
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Old 01-14-2002, 11:01 PM   #9
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I run studs (Hakka 1's) for the better part of 5 months each year. We have a good mix of deep snow, hard pack, and ice. Unlike those of you in the lower 48, the sun is not strong enough in Alaska until late Feb. to actually melt the ice on the roads, it's usually here most of the winter.

As far as the right tire for you, don't rule out the Michelin Arctic Alpen and Pilot Alpen. I know several local ice racers use them in the "unstudded tire class" (not sure what they call it). They are better than the Blizzaks since the rubber goes throughout the tire while giving you almost the same level of grip. I beleive that you will find Blizzaks last one, maybe two seasons before they are no better than an average unstudded snow tire. This is due to the dual compound rubber used to make them. Once the gooey stickey outside is gone, they are just a regualr snow tire.

As far as "friction tires" being better for the environment, I don't see how the Blizzaks can be better than anything else (studded or not) since you have to replace them every couple of years. Another reason to consider the Michelins. While I'm just starting my first year with my current Hakka1's, my wife has had hers for 3 years, going on 4 and they still grip just fine.
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Old 01-14-2002, 11:17 PM   #10
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Default studs are ok if you need them

I have studded snows all around on my 88 subaru, for the last
several years I've had to drive the infamous H93 here north of Golden.
Believe me when you need them you need them!! Two years ago I was
driving into work (midnight shift) following this lady who was going only 25 mph.
She took a slow turn and spun right infront of me and stopped broadside
across the road. I could clearly see her in the head lights and all I could see was eyeballs.
She was absolutely certain I was going to Tbone her in the driver
side door. I calmly stopped about 50 feet short of her car and waited for her
to get her heart out of her thoat and get back under way.

In several decades of winter driving I have learned to love them.

I can crawl up hills that are so slick that you can't stand up if
you get out of your car. Hills that other cars with "good snow tires" can't get up.


They are no problem on dry pavement, but will lengthen you stopping distance slightly in the wet.

If you drive in ground blizzard glare ice conditions, I would recommed them.

When everyone else at work is telling stories about their 5 hour trip to work,
you will be able to relax and listen to the radio.


Larry
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Old 01-15-2002, 09:08 AM   #11
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Default Re: studs are ok if you need them

Quote:
Originally posted by hotrod
They are no problem on dry pavement, but will lengthen you stopping distance slightly in the wet.
I found them to be a bit noisy on dry pavement and also the stud wear was accelerated. I had them on a RWD vehicle so there was also noticably less traction when starting out on dry pavement (rear tires spun easily), this may not be an issue with AWD however. Where I lived at the time they were useful and if I lived there now I would still have them. I don't think I would want them if 95% of my driving was on dry roads though, unless that other 5% was just hellacious. When I had them 95% of my driving was on snow covered and slippery roads.

YMMV
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Old 01-15-2002, 09:54 AM   #12
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If you only need the extra traction for a small portion of driving, i.e. steep ice covered mountain roads - try chains, just on the front. New chains, when sized properly, are relatively inexpensive and install in about 5 minutes. I have done a lot of mountain driving on chains, and they provide awesome traction at 40 kph and under. Don't drive faster.

Cheers
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Old 01-15-2002, 10:23 AM   #13
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hotrod,

What brands of studded tires have you run, and what would you recommend? Although about 90 - 95% of my daily commute up and down I-70 will be dry, when it's icy, it's damn sketchy. Did you put studs on your WRX?

Thanks for the opinions all!
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Old 01-15-2002, 11:23 AM   #14
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Quote:
I don't agree with the "better ice grip than studs" part. I used to have metal studded snow tires and the ice grip was absolutely unreal.
I've driven on frozen lakes, and roads with 1/2" of glare ice with both studded Hakka 10's and Blizzak MZ's and if ice was the ONLY issue I'd use Blizzak MZs every time.

I remember being on one of the passes in BC and stopping to help someone who'd crashed. We couldn't even STAND UP on the ice -- cars with studs were slip sliding everywhere. When we took off to keep going, I floored it (RS) and the car just took off. No wheelspin, no ABS when stopping either. Blizzaks are freakin' amazing.

Also I believe on the 2nd last Tbird rally the car with the fastest ice racing times on Barnes Lake was on Blizzaks.

Yes, they wear out quickly if you drive hard, drive when the temp is warm, etc., and they have soft sidewalls.

If you're after a more performance tire then Blizzak LM or perhaps one of the other winter tires (Michelin, Pirelli) but don't expect as good ice performance as the Blizzaks (the Michelins and Pirellis are pretty good on packed snow though - I have also driven on them).

The only tire of all these I haven't driven on is the Hakka Q.

Glenn
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Old 01-15-2002, 02:55 PM   #15
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Baseball cleats are great on the field, but have you ever tried to play basketball in them?

When only 5% or less of your driving will benefit from them, it doesn't make any sense to sacrifice the abilities of the car the other 95% of the time.

From the description you gave of your driving conditions, I'd say to forego the studs & get some Blizzak MZ's. Just don't try to run them for more than 20,000 miles.

So nothing terribly new to add to the discussion, but I thought I'd throw out another opinion.
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Old 01-15-2002, 04:36 PM   #16
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Default Tire choices

The tires I have on the WRX now are the Cooper wintermaster Plus, but they are not studded so I can run rallyx on them. They have a double sidewall, and are steel belted, so I will get the same for my 88 when it needs new tires.

I generally have found theres not much difference between the major brand snow tires that have the agressive "true" M+S tread. For the last 20+ years I have just gone down to Peerless tire or one of the other major distributors and asked of a true M+S tire, not an all weather that is pinned for studs.

A couple years ago I had to push headlight deep snow to get out of my driveway and it was no problem. Aint no way I'm going to shovel 28 inches of wet snow on a 150 foot long driveway.

I usually only run the snows for sept - June or so, and switch to a non-studded M+S during the summer.

Before everyone screams, I am a storm chaser and wet clay roads in eastern colorado "Require" a full M+S tread unless you want to sit there and watch your car get beat up with 2 inch hail.


By the way I agree, if you jump on it, the studs will spin a little easier on dry pavement. This was a minor problem on the 88 because it is FWD unless I put it in AWD. Its not a big deal unless you want to drag race someone. As far as noise, that diminishes rapidly the first week or so you drive them as the studs seat fully in the tire, and they wear in a little.

Studded tires have payed for themselve for me many times over in accidents prevented. In 35 years of driving in Colorado and some 500,000 miles I haven't had an "at fault" accident. Only morons backing into my parked car etc.

And no I do not drive slowly


Like mentioned above, studded tires on snow will give you about the same traction on glare ice you have on a good dirt road. Makes it much easier to pass fools and run in the clear by your self.

See - Ya
Larry
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Old 01-15-2002, 06:16 PM   #17
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Plenty of all season tires are M+S rated and really, this means they might get you through in moderate conditions, but they are nowhere near as good the Snowflake rated tires.

Oregon actually acknowledges the Snowflake rating, but Washington state I know seems to think the M+S rating is magical. I think M+S is BS.

http://rma.org/newsroom/1999/2_1_99b.html

"The new performance definition for tires designed for use in severe snow conditions will not replace but complement the North American industry-accepted RMA snow tire definition, which uses the symbols "M" and "S" on the tire sidewall. Together, the two definitions will make it easier for consumers to distinguish between all-season "M&S" snow tires and tires designed for use in severe snow conditions."

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m.../article.jhtml

http://www.dunloptire.com/tiretech/?...nter_tires.txt

Glenn

Last edited by ANZAC_1915; 01-15-2002 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 01-15-2002, 06:33 PM   #18
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Default thanks for the info

Thaks for the links, good info.

These cooper WinterMaster Plus tires have the snow flake rating. I didn't notice it before, but I agree, most of the "all season" snow tires are a waste of money.

If it doesn't have an agressive snow tread I don't even look at it. I made that mistake only once.

Larry
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Old 01-16-2002, 02:22 AM   #19
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Here in interior AK, I run all season tires usually April to October, and full winter tires the rest of the time. A few years ago, there was no choice: if safety or performance meant anything to you, then you ran studded tires in the winter. "All season" tires were/are very poor on cold ice.

But I truly believe things have changed. My MY96 Impreza Outback wore Hak 1's in the winter, and that's a great tire, but it is noisy. Also, they figure studs do about 10 million bucks worth of damage per year in AK. Furthermore, they kinda suck on dry pavement, but not as bad as one might think, at least in the case of the Hakka's.. This year I decided to try a friction tire, and ended up with Toyo Observe G-02's. These have an open tread, winter compound with walnut hull pieces, T-rated, and they have exceeded my most optimistic expectations. They are just VERY good, acceptable on dry pavement with 35 psi, very good in deep unplowed snow, very good on ice. I keep meaning to have a brake-off with the guy I sold my last Impreza to, and compare the stopping distance on ice, Hak 1 vs. Toyo, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

Anyway, no more studs for me. They still have a bit of an advantage in certain conditions, I believe, but no longer enough to justify the noise, dry skittishness, and road damage. Good luck.
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Old 01-16-2002, 10:49 AM   #20
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I'd also like to point out the ice tires like Blizzak and Hakka Q are very high tech. They have amazing hydroscopic rubber compounds that literally suck themselves onto ice, as well as thousands of little sipes every 1/8" or so. (remember an "edge" is what gives you ice traction).

More at:
http://www.tirerack.com/winter/tech/blizzfaqs.html
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Old 10-05-2002, 11:50 PM   #21
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Quote:
I remember being on one of the passes in BC and stopping to help someone who'd crashed. We couldn't even STAND UP on the ice -- cars with studs were slip sliding everywhere.
I dunno about that, I'm sure Blizzaks are great tires but studs will still outmanouver and outstop them (although inexperienced winter drivers will slip slide anyhow I suppose).

Here's a link with objective tests about studded tires:link

And another one:
link

Jim

Last edited by codger; 10-06-2002 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 10-06-2002, 12:51 AM   #22
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hotrod and anyone else who's interested:

The November issue of Consumer Reports has a very good write-up on winter tires. They tested a total of 17--6 H-rated and 11 Q-rated.

Just so you know, the Cooper Weather-Master XGR was dead last, #11 of 11. There are much better winter tires that cost about the same.

For ice, there were 3 of 17 that got an "excellent" rating:

1) Dunlop SP Winter Sport M2, $126, H-rated, 16"
2) Dunlop Graspic DS-1, $55, Q-rated, 14"
3)Yokohama Guardex F720, $75, Q-rated, 14"

Most of the others were rated "very good" for ice braking. The Firestone Winterfire was the worst, with a rating of only "fair".

WRX_Nut_CO:

I agree with Glen and tekriter: I would get a set of good studless winter tires and see if they work for you. If you find you need even more traction then try some chains. If your situation were reversed (95% ice/snow and 5% dry road) it might be different but for what you have described studs seem like overkill. The disadvantages would outweigh any advantages.
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Old 10-06-2002, 11:33 AM   #23
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There is another reason to go studless:

They are illegal in some places! Don`t come here with studded tires because you will get a fine.

Mike
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Old 10-06-2002, 03:39 PM   #24
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Default Studded tire update

In the current issue of Tire Rack's "Inside Track" they say that Bridgestone's "studless" winter tires outperformed studded tires.

Hard to believe. Maybe Luke could fill us in on the details of their testing.

BTW: I also posted this in my thread, "New Consumer Reports Winter Tire Test Results".
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Old 10-07-2002, 04:20 AM   #25
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Smile Hakkapelita 1's !!!!

Get Hakka 1's. I've been running Hakkas for years now. I love them, couldn't live w/o them. Nothing better than tires that were race tested on Frozen lakes in Finland. My number 1 choice.

PJ
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