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01-30-2012, 02:10 PM | #1 | |
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Diesels are global stars; U.S. shrugs, steps on the gas
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01-30-2012, 02:19 PM | #2 |
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I just don't buy the need for diesel passenger cars in the US for several reasons.
1) The article neglects to mention that fuel period in Europe is far more expensive than the US. That means the return on the cost premium has a much longer time horizon in the US. 2) Electric cars are the future. Hybrids are a good way for car companies to reduce their technology risk so they see benefit outside of just sales and consumer perception. 3) Diesel engines pollute significantly more than hybrids. Given the trend towards tighter and tighter emissions (see the latest CARB standards), diesel will get to the point where it requires a lot of investment to meet new standards if it's even viable economically. I do think diesel makes sense in light duty trucks as people value the reliability and the lower mpg with gas engines shortens the pay back period. For example why they don't sell a diesel Wrangler is something that still boggles my mind. |
01-30-2012, 02:29 PM | #3 |
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It kills me that BMW is introducing new ///M branded cars with diesels, yet we can't get a utility vehicle smaller than a Super-Heavy-Duty monster pickup with a diesel engine in reasonable numbers.
A few Jeep CRDs are not a large consideration for the whole market. I disagree with JC's assertion that electric is the future... because lithium batteries are not clean, and not cheap, and not energy dense per pound or cubic meter of space they take. And electricity has to be generated somewhere else, by some sort of fuel anyway, and inefficiently transported to your car, which takes HOURS, not minutes. Gasoline is fine, but LP/LNG is an option. Diesel is getting cleaner. CX5 SkyActiv Diesel is reported to not require Urea, or any other third-party diesel emissions cleanup technology. Diesel used to be a lot less controlled by being a lesser-refined fuel, before... but new diesel fuels are more homogenous hydrocarbons and less contaminated by other things suspended in the fuel that remain unburned, such as sulfur, and other things. And engines are getting more efficient at completely burning the fuel, as well. Most of that stuff is getting expensive, not due to the commodity itself, but due to government interference in an economic process of distributing energy. |
01-30-2012, 02:54 PM | #4 | ||
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1) The infrastructure exists. If we move to hydrogen or to a less extent CNG it will require a large shift in how energy is transferred in this country. Electricity requires an upgrade of an existing infrastructure. Granted a large upgrade but that one that would be required regardless of whether cars were electric or not. 2) Electricity generation is centralized and flexible. It can made from coal, oil, solar, wind, nuclear and more. More importantly we switch between them based on locality and do it seemlessly to the customer. If you want make a feel of electric cars more green simply generate the electricity from solar instead of oil. If you want to make a fleet of diesel cars more green they need to be replaced. It also means there are a ton of large industries with vested interests in electric cars which means lobbying $$$. 3) Consumer electronics drive the battery industry anyway. You are right that LiIon batteries are pretty nasty but you are wrong in assuming that we have to build electric cars using them. Battery technology is advancing daily and will continue to do so. The world is electronic now and nothing foreseeable is going to change that. Building electric cars is simply piggy backing on an industry that is already highly profitable and self-sustaining. Quote:
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01-30-2012, 03:32 PM | #5 |
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i'd rather move into the city than buy an electric car.
i'd rather buy a diesel over an electric car. i just don't want an electric car... yes, even if it's a tesla. |
01-30-2012, 03:45 PM | #6 | |
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You can stop going to the gas station and simply plug your car in when you get home. The motors is MUCH simpler so it requires far less maintenance. The electric motor has instant torque for those fun electric burnouts and pop out of a corner. I even like the whine they make under high load though YMMV. The car is also much quieter in normal driving for that extra female approved factor. |
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01-30-2012, 04:18 PM | #7 | |
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Leaf gets 40-60 miles as a matter of full capacity, if everything is ideal. Are you going to steal or buy someone else's electric current if your car goes flat? Can you plan on taking many hours to charge at household current, without high current for a quick charger? A quick charger is still more than an hour, at more kilowatts than a house usually has service for. what happens when it is cold, and cabin heat drastically reduces the range, or conversely in the heat, where A/C reduces the range? Those are electrical, not mechanical, on an electric car... they directly usurp the motive energy supply. A gas engine might drop an MPG or two for full heat, or full A/C. What about adding headlights and fog lights, heated seats, and news radio to listen for road conditions to that demand? What happens if you get stuck, and the batteries run dry? You can't run the engine to generate heat, nor can you power the heater directly once the batteries are flat. If you are in sub-freezing temperatures, it could become life threatening, if you are stranded. You couldn't pay me to risk a blizzard in rural areas in an electric car, and I commute less than 40 miles one way in those conditions during the winter. What happens if you get into an accident, and the car bursts into lithium-fueled flames just by battery cells being exposed to oxygen by a damaged battery envelope? How are years of use going to affect the car, with terminal corrosion, and other increases in electrical resistance, as well as a depleting battery? Tech companies can't build a portable device, or a laptop that any tech company will offer a standard warranty on the battery for more than a year, because the batteries are known to deplete by design over a series of charge cycles. And short-cycling just wastes duration out of the battery's cyclic lifetime. And a car has many, many times more cells to replace, when they do deplete... and they will. Do you want your electric car to burn down your garage after you bring it home from the body shop, 3 weeks after an accident? Something like Volt batteries are showing the possibility of, and that isn't even with the other limitation of a purely electric car. Nikola Tesla tried electric battery powered horseless carriages... and the inherent problems with battery capacitance still exist 120 years later. Electric motors are nice... they suck down the current at higher speed, but they are nice... supplying that current from hundreds to a thousand pounds of batteries on board on board just sucks. Tesla Roadster had 900+lbs of batteries, and couldn't match ~11 gallons of gas in a Lotus Elise, which weighs about 90lbs, including the tank. Last edited by HipToBeSquare; 01-30-2012 at 04:25 PM. |
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01-30-2012, 04:19 PM | #8 | |
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Good gracious Hip can we quit being hysterical about lithium batteries. The whole air exposure thing is bunk for all the types going into cars. And the volt thing only happened if you leaked all the coolant out. So if you take your car back from an accident with no radiator fluid and drive hundreds of miles what happens? Bad things happen... so in summary don't drive your car when there is no coolant. |
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01-30-2012, 05:15 PM | #9 | |
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01-30-2012, 05:28 PM | #10 |
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They make air exposure as unlikely as possible... but lithium exposed to oxygen auto-ignites and combusts. It is a matter of chemistry.
And if you leak coolant out of a gas engine, you crack the block, and stop. Maybe you need a new engine... maybe you need a new car. If you leak the coolant out of a battery, your car bursts into flames so hot that it easily ignites everything around it... whether you are in the car, or in your bed, and your house starts on fire from the car in the garage. You can't just go to a dealer to buy a new LIFE. |
01-30-2012, 05:35 PM | #11 | |
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Oh man I have missed your rants... |
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01-30-2012, 05:41 PM | #12 |
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It's very hard to have a reliable diesel engine in USA because we take sulfur out of the diesel. Then ontop of that we required an expensive DEF fluid system to be installed that will limp home mode your car(sometimes restricting you to 20mph) if you're low on DEF fluid.
We also have a very expensive diesel compared to gas. Mainly cause most americans don't have diesel so to offset earnings they lower gas a tad and skyrocket diesel. We all pay for it either way cause transport costs go up thus we pay more at the store. Win Win for oil companies. Another problem is finding a station with fresh diesel. Only truck stops have fresh diesel. You're regular gas stations with 1 diesel pump has diesel that has been sitting from weeks to months in there. The other side of that coin is most truck stops don't have a small nozzle for diesel cars and only the large nozzle which will not fit and spill all over the place if you even try to use it. Lastly most americans don't like the smell of diesel that doesn't come off your hands easily. I sound like a broken record with this but it's true. Hell NJ residents do not want to pump their own GAS cause they feel the nozzles are dirty and don't like the smell of gas. |
01-30-2012, 05:58 PM | #13 |
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1) See above. Diesel is significantly more expensive than premium in the US. Not so in many other countries. In NZ, for instance, diesel was ~1.70/liter whereas regular was 2.12/liter. (Road tax is assessed based on mileage rather than as sold with fuel so it's more like they're equal in price in reality, but the point stands: not 20+% more expensive than premium by any means.)
2) Benefits of diesel are overstated. The "43 mpg combined" Passat in the article is actually a 35 mpg combined, 43 mpg highway Passat per fueleconomy.gov. 3) Diesels don't do well in terms of smog-forming emissions, and that's a big concern of the US regulations, for better or worse. All this said, I'd consider a diesel from a Japanese automaker (Honda, Mazda, Toyota, Subaru, even Mitsubishi). The current US market pickings are too slim for the rational consumer, IMO. |
01-30-2012, 06:02 PM | #14 | |
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i could stop going to the gas station, but then i'd have to remember to plug the car in every night. i'd have to constantly search for an outlet wherever i go, much like i do now with my cell phone. just in case... i go on regular golf trips with 3 friends all along the east coast, most of which are beyond the range and seating capacity of current electric cars. even the shorter trips (within an hour drive or 60 miles max) are enough to push the limits of a battery's charge so i would be scrambling to find a charger at the golf course and hope it charges while i'm playing. then there's the longer trips to wiliamsburg, pinehurst, myrtle beach, or kiawah island with a group of 4. i feel safer in a car that people can hear. it's eerie watching a tesla take off without a sound. i also enjoy most all motorsports. i'd never marry a woman that demands a quiet car. i can already picture how boring life would be with such a woman. maybe i'm just old fashioned with my automobiles. maybe i like the freedom a gas-powered car affords me. an electric or hybrid strictly as a commuter to and from work? i can deal with that. but as a replacement for what i have now? never. Last edited by nhat; 01-30-2012 at 06:08 PM. |
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01-30-2012, 06:07 PM | #15 |
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They've been feeding us the same kind of "news" article about Diesel-powered passenger vehicles making little sense in the U.S. for the past 4 years.
But, during the same 4 years, VW has been extending its Diesel offering to almost all the vehicles in its line-up. So, that's why I don't put much faith into any of these pieces of "news"; a manufacturer doesn't go from one or two Diesel-powered cars in its line-up to five different Diesel-powered cars if sales are not backing it up. Diesel-powered passenger cars are selling in the U.S. and there's much more than an anecdotal demand for them. EDIT: And I don't even like VW vehicles; but looking at the number of TDI-powered cars they're selling in the area, they must be doing something right. |
01-30-2012, 06:10 PM | #16 |
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hopefully bmw will bring some more of their diesel engines stateside.
and audi. and mb. |
01-30-2012, 06:28 PM | #17 |
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01-30-2012, 08:51 PM | #18 | |
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I'm not even going to attempt to come in on one side of the argument or the other. I just get the impression that there are factors at work that are trying to game the system in favor of hybrids/full electrics and against diesels:
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Apologies for stating the obvious or ranting, I don't do it often. |
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01-30-2012, 09:40 PM | #19 |
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Has nothing to do with lobbyist. Has to do with simple facts. We do not traditionally receive gas or diesel in large quantities. We get oil. From that we refine the oil for whatever application. When we make gas, a byproduct is diesel. So we end up with an excess of diesel since no one here buys diesel. We can't just hold more and more diesel indefinitely.
It's all market. We as americans don't like diesel. Not everyone obviously but most of us don't. Whatever that reason is(sound, smell, complexity, cost, availability, etc) can be argued but that is the fact. |
01-30-2012, 10:02 PM | #20 |
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It just comes down to dollars, and a chicken-and-egg problem of sorts that nobody here has really mentioned. We've already discussed the price of diesel fuel in the USA. There's something you're forgetting though.
Diesels are more expensive to build, more expensive to certify for emissions, and more expensive for mandated in-use testing later on down the line. Therefore manufacturers are reluctant to offer them because they have to invest a lot upfront. Consumers have less choices then, so that may be helping keep demand down. With demand uncertain, automakers are not going to be taking big risks right now. The United States has the strictest auto emissions laws in the world. Some other notes: 1. VW has huge resources and wants world domination essentially, so they can absorb the cost & risk of introducing it. BMW sells expensive cars so that helps. 2. Mazda has always been quirky brand so you can see them doing it. 3. There are a lot of emissions components, and every emissions component has to have a diagnostic monitor: The cat, the particulate filter, the urea injection, the EGR circuits, all of that. That means more potential check engine lights for the customer to deal with and more cost to the manufacturer for development, certification, and in-use emissions testing. Certifying a diesel requires special equipment due to the particulate filters. 4. Gas engines are improving quickly and are way easier for meeting emissions |
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