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Old 02-18-2002, 07:26 PM   #1
Patrick Olsen
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Unhappy The new MRT adjustable top mounts vs. the old ones - what the hell happened??

I've been looking into buying some MRT adjustable front top mounts. I like the MRT design because, unlike most other "pillow ball mounts" I've seen (Cusco, for instance), the MRT top mount has a poly bushing surrounding the spherical bearing. I figured that would help keep the NVH increase down.

Here is a picture of the old MRT top mounts:

Edit: MRT updated their website, so the nice old top mounts are no longer pictured. Sorry. 6/4/02

So I start calling around to MRT dealers here in the US and Bill Harvey at Exeter Subaru tells me they've got two sets coming in today. He called me today and told me he wanted to email a picture of them, because they were totally different. Here's what they look like now:

You can see another shot of these top mounts on Teague's webpage http://home.att.net/~teaguesauto/suspension.htm .

Is it just me or do these things look really ghetto? And, no, I don't mean aesthetically, I mean functionally. It doesn't look to me like there would be any way to mark your settings on the new top mounts, so you would have to have the car aligned on a rack each time you wanted to change the settings.

I'm not impressed by the change, and from talking to Teague's and Exeter it appears they were caught completely by surprise when these new parts showed up.

Pat Olsen
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Old 02-18-2002, 08:18 PM   #2
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Pat,
I hadn't seen the new or the old, so thanks for bringing this up. You make very valid points. I wonder what caused the change. It would be interesting to see what MRT has to say about it.

Paul G.
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Old 02-18-2002, 11:19 PM   #3
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Looks as if you can do camber and caster on the second one. Of course, there is no way to mark where you were! I guess you would need one of those portable wheel alignment tools. From what I hear, caster would be a good way to get max grip in the turns without losing braking grip like you do with camber.

Later,
Seth E.
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Old 02-18-2002, 11:38 PM   #4
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That sucks. I was going to get a pair when I had the chance.

oh well. the search continues for a caster adjustable camber plate.
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Old 02-19-2002, 12:52 AM   #5
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Chris - If you're looking for separate caster and camber adjustability then I don't think you should immediately discount that new design. As Seth said, it sure appears in the pictrre that you can adjust either parameter independently. It looks to me like the three mounting bolts serve a dual purpose - holding the top mount in place, and also clamping down on the portion of the top mount that moves. That plate just has big notches at each corner, so it appears you could get both camber and caster adjusted.

Seth - I know with Mustangs (which also use a Mcpherson strut-type front suspension, albeit one with lousy geometry) everyone says for good handling to max out the positive caster. There are guys who run as much at +6 or +7deg with good C/C plates. I should be in the +5 to +6 range with my Mustang, I think, after the next round of suspension mods. From what I understand, adding more positive caster reduces camber gain during cornering. If you can run lots of positive caster, you'll be able to get away with running less static negative camber, because your dynamic camber change in the corners will be smaller. That's a good thing.

I emailed MRT about it and their reply was:
Quote:
Hi Pat.

The images shown on the website are actually the old style items. These were discontinued by the old supplier, which is why we have since stopped supplying them.

If you are after a cheap strut top, then you can look at the items you have pictured from Exeter/Teague's. They are good for road use, but if you are into racing or hard off road use then I would suggest the higher quality items (around USD$700 per set) that offer much stronger build quality and reliability under hard use (I haven't got a photo of them at present as they are out of stock and have only just become available).

Hope this helps clarify things for you.

Kind Regards
Ben
MRT Performance "We Rally, You Win !"
So, unfortunately, it appears to simply be a supplier issue. Bummer.

Pat
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Old 02-19-2002, 01:33 AM   #6
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Wow $700 for a set of strut tops? I bet those aren't built for low NVH

Isn't caster adjustment only allowed in SM in SCCA autox? Doesn't STX/STS allow camber adjustment, but not caster?

If so, these would not be for autox junkies.

Hmm... I decided to search and answer my own question:

(STS rules)

E. On vehicles with strut-type suspensions, adjustable camber plates may be installed at the top of the strut, and the original upper mounting holes may be slotted. The drilling of holes in order to perform the installation is permitted. The center clearance hole may not be modified. Any type of bearing or bushing may be used in the adjustable camber plate attachment to the strut. The installation may incorporate an alternate upper spring perch/seat and/or mounting block (bearing mount). Any ride height change resulting from installation of camber plates is allowed. Caster changes resulting from the use of camber places are permitted.

(/STS rules)

That last sentece is misleading, I don't think these would be legal in STS/STX, as they probably don't mean camber plates which are specifically designed to allow changes to caster also. But it's open to interpretation, I suppose.
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Old 02-19-2002, 10:07 AM   #7
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Question Confused!

The message that Pat got back from MRT seems a bit confusing. Okay....the origional picture from the MRT site are the old ones which were discontinued and no longer supplied. Second, who the hell makes the crap ones? Does MRT make them? If so, why are they selling such a crappy product? MRT even calls them "cheap". What does this $700 mount look like? Is it the same as the "old style"? Why in the hell would it cost $700 for a set of adjustible mounts?!?!?! When were they ever in stock? What do they look like? It seems that MRT never gives a decisive answer.

Later,
Seth E.
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Old 02-19-2002, 10:54 AM   #8
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Jeez, how hard is it for the manufacturers to give us what we want? From reading the various camber plate threads, it seems to me that 75% of performance-minded Subaru owners would want the following specs:

- independently adjustable camber and caster, with the ability to adjust one without adjusting the other.

- tick marks or calibrations on the plate(s) so you can move between known settings without a re-alignment.

- polyurethane or hardened rubber mount to minimize flex without the metal-on-metal click-click-click noises.

- a price < $400 for the pair.

There you go MRT/ISR/Cobb/whoever: make/source these and I'll bet you'll sell hundreds of them!
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Old 02-19-2002, 11:02 AM   #9
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Aaaamen, Brother Jon. This doesn't seem like such a difficult thing to me, either, but nobody seems to be able to produce. them with the characteristics you listed. The thing that really confuses me is the lack of independent caster/camber adjustability.

Seth, Ben said those super-whamodyne $700 top mounts just became available, hence the lack of pictures. I don't know what they look like or why they cost $700, but they are definitely not the same as the "old style" (which sold for under $200).

Pat
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Old 02-19-2002, 12:26 PM   #10
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You nailed it Jon! That's exactly what I want, I hope some manufacturers are listening. I was about to order the MRT mounts untill I saw this post, thanks for brining this up.

Corey
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Old 02-19-2002, 12:30 PM   #11
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Is this something that Kartboy could make? Looks like it. You guys should send him this post and let him know. If anyone can do it, he could (if he has the time). It might be more expensive, but if he offered a group buy or something before the autox/track season starts, I bet he'd get lots of interest.

Paul G.
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Old 02-19-2002, 06:06 PM   #12
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Default Ground Control?

Has anyone checked out ground control's camber plates?



They don't have Subaru's listed, but they seem pretty universal and I think Gary Sheehan might be using them on his race car. Plus, they're one of the only ones I've seen that use a thrust plate/bearing to take the load off the spherical bearing.

Ground Control

-Steve

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Old 02-19-2002, 06:10 PM   #13
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Answered my own question ... Ground Control camber plates on Gary's car:



Sorry for the big pic ...

-Steve

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Old 02-19-2002, 06:25 PM   #14
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Anyone know which application they used on the Subaru? I checked the STS and SP rules and we are allowed to drill holes to mount the plates (if you didn't notice the GC plate had four bolts to hold it down while the Subaru strut mount uses three).

Other than some careful measuring it doesn't seem to be a hard install. Anyone know for sure?

Tony
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Old 02-19-2002, 06:36 PM   #15
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Adjustable camber caster plates are legal in STS. The STS rules are just a carry-over from the street prepared rules and they are definately legal there...

Ground Control is working on a set of camber/caster plates that will work with the stock Subaru mounting holes... The drawings are done for them and they hope to start production soon. I believe I will be recieving the first (if not the first) set. I will let you know how it goes.

Jason Uyeda
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Old 02-19-2002, 06:37 PM   #16
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I'd guess that they just found something with the correct shaft diameter. Tom (kartboy) and Joel Gat work with/on the car and would probably know.

-Steve

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Old 02-19-2002, 06:39 PM   #17
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1) Better never ever want to use a strut bar if you use the GC plates. (probably not an issue for most)

2) Gary has no concern for NVH, and this is what the whole thing stemmed from initially by Pat wanting the MRT plates over the Cusco full metal PBMs. Can anyone comment on the NVH with the GC plates?

Anyone have price info on the GC plates?

Edit others are quicker typers...please keep us informed spaf, though I do like how they totally maxed out the caster by changing the mounting holes such that the plate is pretty much as far back as possible. Probably not possible with mounts that go in the stock holes, or without changing the clearance of the hole for the strut, so probably not STS legal to put it so far back.
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Old 02-20-2002, 01:49 AM   #18
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Hello,

Joel here. See the leading edge of the GC plate as shown in the pic of the race car? See how it's worn out? Wonder where that's from?

Gotta love Big O. We were out of time, early in the season, and wanted to laser verify our basic alignment so that all our changes would have some reasonably verified starting point. So we asked Big O to align the car. They did. They wanted more castor. They took a BFH (Big F-ing Hammer) and slammed the bejeezus out of the plates.

Oh yeah. Quality work, those fellows. Quality work with a hammer.

Joel
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Old 02-20-2002, 08:49 AM   #19
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I was at DMS-USA's shop a couple weeks ago, and Dave showed me some pics of a caster/camber plate made by DMS. Looked to be *very* high quality - basically a camber plate in a caster plate, independantly adjustable and both well marked/graduated... I've never seen those dms plates for sale though...
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Old 02-20-2002, 11:07 AM   #20
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Here is the major issue for me.

From Jon's spec's:
-polyurethane or hardened rubber mount to minimize flex without the metal-on-metal click-click-click noises.

What we need is are mounts that have this!

Corey
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Old 02-20-2002, 11:07 AM   #21
Patrick Olsen
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I've heard of the DMS plates, but have never seen any pictures or prices. I searched on here a while back and found one post by a guy who had gotten them and said they were crap, and another post by a guy who had gotten them and said they were the greatest thing since sliced bread. Ahhhh, gotta love the iClub.

Pat
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Old 02-20-2002, 11:23 AM   #22
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Kevin
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Old 02-20-2002, 12:05 PM   #23
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Ground control already makes exactly what we need--just for E46 BMWs. It looks like castor is not adjustable on the fly, but that wouldn't be a huge drawback as you can add an add'l degree or so of castor in the shop then play with camber at the track.

http://www.ground-control.com/e46_m3_street_camber.htm
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Old 02-20-2002, 01:30 PM   #24
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The metal to metal clanking noise is from the spherical bearing in the plate. They're not designed to take large axial loads (like the force of a car bouncing around) and they tend to get sloppy really fast. Also, the bearings that most people sell are pretty lousy to begin with and have slop built in. It is my assumption that because Ground Control uses a thrust bearing that takes the vertical load that they wouldn't clank nearly as much and the spherical bearing would last longer. I could be wrong, but that's the theory behind it.

-Steve

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Old 02-20-2002, 02:30 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Austin
I was at DMS-USA's shop a couple weeks ago, and Dave showed me some pics of a caster/camber plate made by DMS. Looked to be *very* high quality - basically a camber plate in a caster plate, independantly adjustable and both well marked/graduated... I've never seen those dms plates for sale though...
Dave told me about those plate too. I want a set, but they are extremely hard to get.

I think they are from DMS japan.
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