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Old 10-06-2006, 11:42 AM   #1
beachbum
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Question Who's out of step- Kelly Blue Book or the dealers?

I'm thinking of selling my truck (2001 Tacoma Xtracab, TRD, V6, etc...), so I started looking at what I could get for it. Autotrader has quite a few of the exact same trucks listed, some for as much as $20k! If I could get that, I'd be thrilled, but I know there's no way. So I checked KBB. Their prices for the same truck ranged from $11.5k (trade in) to about $15.5k (retail). And NADA guide's retail is $17.7k! If I could get $14.5k for it, I'd be totally stoked, because that's a good bit more than I owe.

So, as someone who hasn't bought and sold many cars lately, I ask- where does the disparity come in here? Who's out of step?
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Old 10-06-2006, 11:45 AM   #2
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I tihnk the people in the auto trader are stupid... Although the resale value of tacomas seems to be nice.

I have seen brand new 2006 4 door v6 prerunner tacomas for 22k at dealerships. I dont know if they actually get 20k for their used old tacomas

I think you would be able to get 14.5 easily for it, atleast here in souther california
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Old 10-06-2006, 11:47 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beachbum View Post
I'm thinking of selling my truck (2001 Tacoma Xtracab, TRD, V6, etc...), so I started looking at what I could get for it. Autotrader has quite a few of the exact same trucks listed, some for as much as $20k! If I could get that, I'd be thrilled, but I know there's no way. So I checked KBB. Their prices for the same truck ranged from $11.5k (trade in) to about $15.5k (retail). And NADA guide's retail is $17.7k! If I could get $14.5k for it, I'd be totally stoked, because that's a good bit more than I owe.

So, as someone who hasn't bought and sold many cars lately, I ask- where does the disparity come in here? Who's out of step?
How many miles do you have on it???

I checked on my '01, 4dr, TRD, 4X4, Limited and it came to $9,500 in fair condition.....which is still good enough to pay it off. But I have 145,000 miles
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Old 10-06-2006, 11:51 AM   #4
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I think having a good idea of what they would put it on the lot for, less $1500-$2k for the "sell for price" is a good way to approach trade in. For instance, if you have a pretty good idea that they will put your truck on the used car lot for 15.5k and would sell it for $14.5ish then it is not unreasonable to expect close to 13k or more for trade in value. Especially if they are selling you the new car at or below invoice.
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Old 10-06-2006, 11:51 AM   #5
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you have to take into consideration the dealership's full of **** factor. it's called discriminatory pricing. the concept is to get the most possible on each sale based on a consumer's tolerances.

be patient, you'll get what you want if you're firm and walk anough times.
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Old 10-06-2006, 11:52 AM   #6
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Last time I checked, KBB doesn't buy or sell vehicles.

In the end, the guy with the cash is the one who's right.
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Old 10-06-2006, 11:54 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray View Post
I think having a good idea of what they would put it on the lot for, less $1500-$2k for the "sell for price" is a good way to approach trade in. For instance, if you have a pretty good idea that they will put your truck on the used car lot for 15.5k and would sell it for $14.5ish then it is not unreasonable to expect close to 13k or more for trade in value. Especially if they are selling you the new car at or below invoice.
+1 he's exactly right. 2K margin is fair and attainable.
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Old 10-06-2006, 12:01 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SureGrap View Post
How many miles do you have on it???

I checked on my '01, 4dr, TRD, 4X4, Limited and it came to $9,500 in fair condition.....which is still good enough to pay it off. But I have 145,000 miles
Only 60k. I only owe about $12k on it, so I feel pretty good about beating that. Any money I make will go into a daily driver/beater, though. Might be my chance to get back into a Subaru, though. We want to do a few things, so I'm looking at reducing expenses.

I do have the luxury though of taking my time and selling private party, so that works in my favor. I'm thinking of asking what I paid for it and seeing where that ends me up.
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Old 10-06-2006, 12:19 PM   #9
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I believe dealers actually use the Black Book which lists what the current auction value. This is what a Nissan sales mgr told me about 2 years ago. Although I was trying to trade in a 98 Legacy GT wagon w/ 125,000 miles. They would not have re-sold the car....they would have sent it to auction.
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Old 10-06-2006, 12:21 PM   #10
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Quote:
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I believe dealers actually use the Black Book which lists what the current auction value. This is what a Nissan sales mgr told me about 2 years ago. Although I was trying to trade in a 98 Legacy GT wagon w/ 125,000 miles. They would not have re-sold the car....they would have sent it to auction.
That's what the Subaru dealer who offered me $500 for my truck on trade told me.

I sold the truck on my own for $3300.
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Old 10-06-2006, 12:22 PM   #11
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Manheim Auction value > *

don't let anybody tell you otherwise....that's the standard that's used because that's what the dealers can buy the cars for at wholesale.

and remember - wholesale != retail. Private party pricing has little relevance to a trade-in value.
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Old 10-06-2006, 12:23 PM   #12
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Black book??


Most dealers/banks on the West Coast use NADA values.

www.nadaguides.com

but also check out Edmunds TMV, it seems to be fairly accurate.

www.edmunds.com
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Old 10-06-2006, 12:28 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoratioCaine View Post
Black book??


Most dealers/banks on the West Coast use NADA values.

www.nadaguides.com

but also check out Edmunds TMV, it seems to be fairly accurate.

www.edmunds.com
http://www.blackbookusa.com/aboutus.asp

The Nissan dealer offered me under $1000 and I sold it for $4000 to a private party.
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Old 10-06-2006, 12:33 PM   #14
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From the horse's mouth.
Manheim auction value is used when I am buying a trade I don't know if I have a market for. If I can't sell it quick I can run it through the auction of sell it to a wholesaler and not lose $$. The "Black Book" is simply local auction values published every 2 weeks, but now the Manheim numbers are available on a palm or web enabled phone as well as a PC so you can see what the market is that day.

NADA business trade in value is what I use if I know I have a market for the vehicle. Primarily because the banks that I use to sell used cars base the amount they will fund on this number.

The 2 numbers are usually pretty close, but occasionally a vehicle will have a higher book value, and I will pay over auction because I know I can fund a sale on that vehicle that will not require the buyer to have big $$ at delivery.

Example: Manheim avg for 2003 Subaru WRX sedan w/53k $12750, NADA business trade in for same car $12850.

BTW I am an independant dealer, so I have no excuse for the BS that dealerships pull... the more they aggrivate people the better my business is.
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Old 10-06-2006, 12:48 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoratioCaine View Post
Black book??


Most dealers/banks on the West Coast use NADA values.

www.nadaguides.com

but also check out Edmunds TMV, it seems to be fairly accurate.

www.edmunds.com
I sold cars for several years (on the East Coast). Never once saw a dealer NOT use NADA. KBB is a joke (whether they over or under quote).
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Old 10-06-2006, 01:06 PM   #16
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I worked part-time for my uncle (independent dealership). We pretty much always used the auction book prices, because we handled a lot of modified and performance cars; not a popular market. It was a lot of fun for a car nut. I didn't make any money, but got to work on and use some pretty outrageous cars.
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Old 10-06-2006, 01:19 PM   #17
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Dealerships use a lot of different sources for pricing, and it varies by region and preference.

West Coast: Kelly and NADA
East Coast: Galves and Black Book

Alot of people also use the Manheim Auction Reports.
These are averages of all of the sale prices at Manheim auctions across the country. It's my preferred method of assesing resale and trade in values.


You see, for the dealer, they need to minimize their investment in any vehicle, so they will always shoot to have trade in values close to what the car sells for at auction. Why would they pay you $2,000 more when they can buy the same car tomorrow for a better price?



CN: Dealers use various books and price lists based on actual auction values.
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Old 10-06-2006, 01:24 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patagonian GT View Post
Manheim Auction value > *

don't let anybody tell you otherwise....that's the standard that's used because that's what the dealers can buy the cars for at wholesale.

and remember - wholesale != retail. Private party pricing has little relevance to a trade-in value.
Quote:
Originally Posted by balrog View Post
http://www.blackbookusa.com/aboutus.asp

The Nissan dealer offered me under $1000 and I sold it for $4000 to a private party.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanRx View Post
From the horse's mouth.
Manheim auction value is used when I am buying a trade I don't know if I have a market for. If I can't sell it quick I can run it through the auction of sell it to a wholesaler and not lose $$. The "Black Book" is simply local auction values published every 2 weeks, but now the Manheim numbers are available on a palm or web enabled phone as well as a PC so you can see what the market is that day.

NADA business trade in value is what I use if I know I have a market for the vehicle. Primarily because the banks that I use to sell used cars base the amount they will fund on this number.

The 2 numbers are usually pretty close, but occasionally a vehicle will have a higher book value, and I will pay over auction because I know I can fund a sale on that vehicle that will not require the buyer to have big $$ at delivery.

Example: Manheim avg for 2003 Subaru WRX sedan w/53k $12750, NADA business trade in for same car $12850.

BTW I am an independant dealer, so I have no excuse for the BS that dealerships pull... the more they aggrivate people the better my business is.

indeed. If you want to find a fairly close value, buy a short subscription to http://www.galves.com . Essentially, dealers probably won't offer you anything less than the galves value. Sometimes they offer more. It really depends on the car/market. A tacoma will likely fetch more.
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Old 10-06-2006, 02:04 PM   #19
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The dealer just gave me exactly what NADA online said he would for my base 03' 5 speed Accord LX with 120K ($7500). The car was whooped. (This was after I talked them down over 2k on my WRX).

Some things to look for-
-Never tell the dealer your payoff. That's all they will try to give you.
-Get a price on the new car first, then give them your trade info.
They may give you more for your trade to pay it off, but they will get you on the price of the new car. So have the new car priced before you talk trade.
-Never tell what you are willing to pay monthly. That's the biggest mistake you can make.
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Old 10-06-2006, 02:24 PM   #20
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I think we all know this but there is the general heirarchy to used car pricing:

Retail price
v
Actual Retail selling price
v
Private sale value
v
Trade in value


Ive seen dealership with mega-high Retail values on cars... Like say a 2004 Forester XT with 40k miles on the lot at $24,000 (Thats what my parents paid for their XT IN 2004...)
But they do drop the price quite a bit, and thats usually what they aim for... Tent sales/special sales they also seem to drop the prices a bit more, so its a good time to buy (I got my first impreza for $2k under what the dealer wanted at the dealership vs. when it was at the tent sale )

And one things dealerships do that makes the price higher is they put from $1000-2000 into the cars right off the bat when then get them as trade ins or via other means (detailing, XX mile checkups, repairing anything thats broken, etc.) and thats how the used car departments really make their money...

Trade in value is always mega-low... Private sale value I think is the best indicator of actual vehicle value, but it ranges sooooo wildly especially compairing region to region and internet vs. other means that it makes it hard to gauge value anymore. Its a lot easier to buy these days then to sell...
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Old 10-06-2006, 03:04 PM   #21
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So I wonder what my 2004 WRX is worth with 73,xxx miles on it....
<-- Too affraid to look, but at least it paid for. I drive my cars into the ground bitches!
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Old 10-06-2006, 03:06 PM   #22
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Isn't a vehicle worth about as much as someone is willing to pay for it? KBB is just a reference, I don't think its the gold standard for buying/selling prices. Not to mention geographic and economic issues (I bet its hard to sell an SUV for its KBB value right now due to oil prices)
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Old 10-06-2006, 03:06 PM   #23
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FWIW, I just got my 02 Tacoma, SR5, 4cyl, 4x4 with 32,000 miles for $17k.

So yeah, resale is high. I wouldn't be surprised if you got $15,000 for it.
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Old 10-06-2006, 03:06 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beachbum View Post
I'm thinking of selling my truck (2001 Tacoma Xtracab, TRD, V6, etc...), so I started looking at what I could get for it. Autotrader has quite a few of the exact same trucks listed, some for as much as $20k! If I could get that, I'd be thrilled, but I know there's no way. So I checked KBB. Their prices for the same truck ranged from $11.5k (trade in) to about $15.5k (retail). And NADA guide's retail is $17.7k! If I could get $14.5k for it, I'd be totally stoked, because that's a good bit more than I owe.

So, as someone who hasn't bought and sold many cars lately, I ask- where does the disparity come in here? Who's out of step?
Dealers have black books they look up your car/trucks value in and they use kbb for theirs. I can tell you what the black book value is if you'd like. You will get more money selling it yourself, a lot more.
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Old 10-06-2006, 03:30 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bpwatts View Post
Isn't a vehicle worth about as much as someone is willing to pay for it? KBB is just a reference, I don't think its the gold standard for buying/selling prices. Not to mention geographic and economic issues (I bet its hard to sell an SUV for its KBB value right now due to oil prices)
Idealistic view of the free market is a wonderful thing, but a car deal is less than ideal. If the vehicle you are selling will ultimately be paid for by a bank and financed or leased to an end user, then the vehicle has a value determined by the bank. As I stated earlier the banks that I use for financing used cars base the amount they will lend on the "trade in" value in the business section of NADA. Therefore a dealer that will buy a car or take one on trade in hopes of reselling it will need to structure their pricing in line with that.
KBB is a wierd "tool" that is as useful as a football bat to a car dealer. It is essentially a consumer publication marketed as an "insiders resource" in the auto industry...but I don't know anyone who uses it or any bank that accepts the information from it to determine value. I have heard it described as an "insurance guide" because most insurance companies will accept the values in KBB as a reflection of the market value of a totalled vehicle, but I have no first hand experience with that.

NADA trade in, and Manheim auction values...that is where it's at.

As for selling SUV's in a tight oil market, you would be suprised.
The higher gas goes, the bigger the incentives get for the grande gas hogs.
The higher the incentives get, the bigger the "spread" between MSRP and actual purchase price...the more negative equity the consumer can bury in their new land yacht.
$10k upside down in your 2001 Jeep??? No problem! I can get you a shiny new Tahoe and after all is said and done you will only finance the MSRP... because the incentives (rebates, customer cash, whatever) lowered the actual price to $10k less than the sticker...and the bank will still finance the sticker price. What a deal.
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