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10-18-2004, 02:35 PM | #1 | |
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2005 ECU OBD Requirements - Hurdles to Reflashing
I finally noticed today for the first time that CARB has imposed some interesting new OBD requirements that apply to 2005 model year and newer cars. From p. 64 of http://www.arb.ca.gov/regact/obd02/fro1968-2.pdf:
Quote:
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10-18-2004, 03:15 PM | #2 |
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as usual carb= teh devil
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10-18-2004, 05:56 PM | #3 |
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I'm curious about whether and which 2005 Subaru ECUs support the OBD MODE $09 function (VIN, CIN [calibration ID number] and CVN [calibration vehicle number]). Anyone ever hook up a general scan tool and try to pull this info from a 2005 Subaru? Alternatively, for those with access to a 2005 Subaru Service manuals, does the Engine (Diagnostics) section dealing with an OBD-II General Scan Tool have any mention of the MODE $09 function and data?
If you can verify, yea or nay, please post the model and how you verified. |
10-18-2004, 07:40 PM | #4 |
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My 2005 Legacy GT Limited is reporting VIN, CVN, and CIN to my OBD-2.com laptop based scan tool. Hope the guys that have already reflashed their ECUs know about this!
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10-18-2004, 10:43 PM | #5 |
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intersting this mght very well explain cobbs delay on the 05 access ports
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10-19-2004, 12:15 AM | #6 |
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....but will using a UTEC show up in some way???
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10-19-2004, 12:17 AM | #7 |
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I don't see a problem here.
Reflashed ECU can report whatever it wants to whatever query. I.e. hardcoded response. Unless there is some ROM area on the ECU which handles this function... Edit: If the ROM part is true we're screwed. If not, then only folks that just change the mapping values would have a problem. People with the smarts to edit the ECU program code itself, can code around it. Edit again: unless of course the ODB-2 standard includes commands for reading the ECU code/data area contents.... this seems unlikely, and if it was the case, then they wouldn't need to require the cars to support all this CVN/CIN stuff. Manuf would just supply code checksums to the emissions folks. Last edited by realwomble; 10-19-2004 at 12:23 AM. |
10-19-2004, 12:42 AM | #8 |
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The stock ECU will be fine though I am going to bet any piggyback systems are going to run into problems as different values are being expected. Though pulling the ECU, doing a hard reset and driving it for a few days will probably resolve those problems.
Cheers, Bill Knose Lead Tuner I-Speed USA |
10-19-2004, 12:55 AM | #9 |
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Hmm.
This thread is alarming... http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...7&page=3&pp=25 Sounds like my "worst case" above may actually be the case, in a roundabout way (BIU?). |
10-19-2004, 09:07 AM | #10 | |
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Quote:
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10-19-2004, 01:34 PM | #11 | |
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Quote:
I just took a deeper look into this with the stock reflash the main concern is the "standardized electronic format that allows for off-board verification that the CVN is valid." Since the ECU can be recalibrated now the real problem will be when they recheck the the values versus the values they have in house at the DMV smog station. Though the stock map can be put back into place. The problem I see with the Piggyback, if left on of course, would be that the stock ECU is trying to adjust it's values to meet a certain range between two border points. With the new criteria what I could see happening is that a piggyback will go beyond these points to get optimal horsepower. Currently this is not a big problem, as most piggybacks intercept the CEL's now. Though later on down the road with implementations in the ECU would cause the ECU to be on the lookout for more of this, and will be a little bit harder on the piggyback so make sure that the car stays within it's limits and running. Otherwise a CEL will pop up and could cause the car to go into a limp mode until the problem is resolved. Basically the OEM will become a lot more strick about what it recieves back from the engine, it will expect something within a very clear range and if it is not there on all sensors then it will throw up some CEL and possibly if really strick, the car will go into limp mode. Currently the problem with piggybacks is not there nearly at all. Though I can see where this is leading, as they need to crack down on such awful polluters. Don't mind the big ass diesel trucks on the highway puffing out black smoke for all of us to breath. Don't mind the fact that they have no restrictions at all. The CARB laws are going to get so tough that piggybacks possibly even reflashes will not work. Though a lot will depend on how big this industry really is and how much aftermarket performance can push back on other markets. The trucking company's are very big and have not had smog restrictions for many years now, so they are finding another culprit to blame. It is getting political now, you know the aftermarket industry is doing well then. Cheers, Bill Knose Lead Tuner I-Speed USA |
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10-19-2004, 02:23 PM | #12 |
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This looks more like a checksum calculation from the rom-file.
In any case we've had a UTEC being tested on a 2005 legacy for about a month without any CELs or anything out of the ordinary. -Nathan |
10-19-2004, 02:40 PM | #13 |
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I just checked a 2004MY Impreza service manual and, guess what, OBD-II Mode $09 is documented as supported for both the WRX and the STi. Mode $09 was never mentioned in either the 2002MY or the 2003MY Impreza service manual. So it looks like Subaru introduced support for VIN, CVN and CIN earlier than required.
Here's a simple test for 2004 WRX or STi owners who have both a scan tool and an AccessPort. Pull the Mode $09 data with the scan tool. Divorce the AccessPort. Pull the Mode $09 data again. Did the CVN change? |
10-19-2004, 02:52 PM | #14 | |
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Quote:
This (from Bill's post) is the problem: ....." I just took a deeper look into this with the stock reflash the main concern is the "standardized electronic format that allows for off-board verification that the CVN is valid" and we won't know if it's really being used until the technology reaches smog stations. |
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10-19-2004, 03:16 PM | #15 | |
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Quote:
What my little experiment would tell us is whether or not Cobb's reflash does anything to short circuit the CVN calculation or reporting so that a reflashed ECU continues to report the pre-reflash CVN value. If not, then there's a problem. |
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10-19-2004, 03:53 PM | #16 |
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Kinda OT, but skywalker... on highway trucks do indeed have emissions standards to meet nowadays. We just had a bunch of engines in our shop that were manufactured earlier this year that we couldn't sell because they did not meet emissions. To put them in a truck, special aftercoolers and (get this) catalytic converters had to be fitted to make them legal. Not to mention special actions taken by OEM's lately to reduce NOx and particulate emissions via cooled EGR and compound turbocharging. And most all on highway engines and a lot of off highway engines have gone to electronic control of fueling and burn a lot cleaner than the old mechanical engines, even at full load. There's all kinds of cool tricks a tech can do on the electronic controlled engines. Kinda kin to going from carb to EFI on a gasoline engine. Just thought I'd throw that out there. -Chuck
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10-19-2004, 04:39 PM | #17 | |
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Quote:
You're assuming an onboard calculation and a very simple tool that just queries the ECU for the numbers. However, if there is a standardized way to access the ECU memory from an offboard tool to checksum the data, then it doesn't really matter what the ECU reports. This is what the quote in Bill's post implies. I'd assume they (ECU designers) would have considered the possibility of reflashed code reporting an "incorrect" ID. The only way around that is offboard checksum calculation, so it seems likely that this is infact what will be used in the more "advanced" tools to verify program integrity. Last edited by realwomble; 10-19-2004 at 04:44 PM. |
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10-20-2004, 12:03 PM | #18 |
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This is very bad news.
(4.7.2) Manufacturers shall request Executive Officer approval of the algorithm used to calculate the CVN. Executive Officer approval of the algorithm shall be based on the complexity of the algorithm and the difficulty in achieving the same CVN with modified calibration values. This makes it sound like the key generated (CVN) will be unique. The algorithm used should be sufficiently complex so that you can't create another set of bits inside the flash that would generate the same key using this algorithm. If algorithm is sufficiently complex and the key is big enough (triple DES with 1024 bit key or the like), you would never be able to generate a flash file that would create the same key. The only way around this would be to restore the OEM code and reverse all the modifications when you have to do smog. I have always thought that it would come to this. It just sucks that it is now going to be reality. |
10-20-2004, 02:17 PM | #19 | |
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Quote:
The way it reads, it indicates that the tester will request the coded response, but it does not indicate that the response must consider the request. They will probably use something relatively simple, like CRC-32 or maybe a one-way hash function on a checksum result. Either would make it statistically unlikely that the user could duplicate the results in flash. However, with enough control over the code, or with any piggyback, you will probably be able to just duplicate the "stock" value when it spits the code back to the tester. All bets are off when OBD-II changes to -III, however. At that point, I would imagine, if they are serious about stopping modders, that they will build in a challenge-response system. The tester will generate an initialization vector value, which will likely be concatenated (or XOR'd) with the checksum value, then encoded by another function. This will make breaking it a lot harder, without access to the guts of the testing equipment. All that said, a piggyback should still have no problems, provided it does not interfere with OBD-II or -III responses. -Sean |
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10-20-2004, 01:58 PM | #20 |
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Hey Jon[in CT],
What should we expect to see from pulling $09 ? Is it going to be something legable or just some binary garbage? |
10-20-2004, 05:10 PM | #21 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
I expect that Calibration Vehicle Number is sent as a fixed binary value and is displayed as either decimal number or an hex number. |
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10-20-2004, 05:28 PM | #22 |
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From my scans, I saw:
VIN: 17 digit alphanumeric CIN: 8 digit alphanumeric CVN: 8 digits, could be full alphanumeric but mine is only hex digits |
10-21-2004, 04:27 PM | #23 |
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i am going to scan a reflashed car tonight and see if the vin matches the car ... will report back
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10-22-2004, 08:16 PM | #24 |
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well we hooked up with obd-2.com software tonight
on a 05 wrx with a cobb stage 1 91 map version 1.20 CIN and CVN are reported but the VIN is NOT reported comes back with "$09 unavailable" |
10-23-2004, 09:37 AM | #25 |
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I'd be curious to see if it would report a VIN after being unmarried. . .and if it did would it be the correct VIN?
And what about ECUtek and $09? |
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